Just what DO Neo-Pagans believe?

[technomage]

...I don't think I've met a single Pagan who is a poisoner (what that word you're quoting as "witch" really means

Um ... no. The Hebrew does not mean poisoner--that's a bad (Greek to English) translation of a bad (Hebrew to Greek) translation. The original Hebrew means witch, and the root is related to "to mutter or to murmer"--i.e. to mutter incantations.

[technomage]

The problem is that one of your chief spokesman here did claim that the Bible was legitimate at one time, and did contain God's Word - as far as wiccans being allowed here, it's TWEB's choice to do so. If it was up to me, you'd never be given space to propagate something which is such an abomination to God.

Athanasius,

Though you consider me an enemy, I am not. I would prefer that you did not treat me as an enemy, but that is your choice.

[Krusader]

Athanasius,

Though you consider me an enemy, I am not. I would prefer that you did not treat me as an enemy, but that is your choice.

Don't you know, Justin, that you have made yourself an enemy of Christ and the cross? Still, God stands afar off, still looking for you to return. Let's face it, the last time you went back to Him, it was a half-hearted return. But, still He'll forgive you, if you will have a contrite heart and seek the Living Christ as Savior. God can still use you - you have a great mind. But, Justin, you need to submit that mind to Christ........and that's not easy, is it?

[technomage]

Don't you know, Justin, that you have made yourself an enemy of Christ and the cross?

I know that is what you believe. Even your own scripture is not clear on the subject.

Still, God stands afar off, still looking for you to return.

Actually, you yourself, in quoting Hebrews at the other forum, made it quite obvious that you do not expect that to happen. Indeed, you've made quite clear that you feel I'm irredeemable.

Make up your mind, for I'm tired of seeing you tossed to and fro upon the wind of your current emotional whim. You despise me--I don't care about that one way or another. But you think that because you despise me, God must despise me.

Athanasius, I tell you the truth--if I were an enemy of the Gospel, if I had any intention of driving people away from Christ, I could ask for no greater ally than you. You do far more to chase people away from the Gospel than I could do, were I interested in doing so.

[Krusader]

I know that is what you believe. Even your own scripture is not clear on the subject.



Actually, you yourself, in quoting Hebrews at the other forum, made it quite obvious that you do not expect that to happen. Indeed, you've made quite clear that you feel I'm irredeemable.

Make up your mind, for I'm tired of seeing you tossed to and fro upon the wind of your current emotional whim. You despise me--I don't care about that one way or another. But you think that because you despise me, God must despise me.

Athanasius, I tell you the truth--if I were an enemy of the Gospel, if I had any intention of driving people away from Christ, I could ask for no greater ally than you. You do far more to chase people away from the Gospel than I could do, were I interested in doing so.

Well, for everyone I may have turned away, there are always many who I have brought closer. But, I only do as the Lord directs, so your argument is with Him. But, this is not about me, and your ad hom attacks are simple tactics to avoid confronting your problem, your sin. You walked with Jesus, and then chose to walk apart? Isn't that true? You knew the one Who hung on the cross, and then chose to crucify Him again by turning your back on Him and embracing myths and spells, and the worship of creation rather than the Creator. That's the dilemma you have.

Now, Hebrews says that if you reject the one Atonement for sin, there no longer remains an atonement. Do you reject it? Have you gone that far? All sins will be forgiven, but blasphemy of the Spirit of God will not be forgiven. I don't believe you've gone that far, Justin.

And who is your true friend.? The person who continues to tell you the truth, or one who pats you on the head and calls you "dude?" If I didn't care about your salvation, Justin, I'd simply remain silent, do nothing, and let you go to hell. At least I care enough to warn you.

[technomage]

But, I only do as the Lord directs

And this simple statement is the very core of your delusion.

It is not a delusion I am interested in arguing with. And you are not a person whom I choose to hear false statements from.

As I said before, I will pray for you.

[Krusader]

And this simple statement is the very core of your delusion.

It is not a delusion I am interested in arguing with. And you are not a person whom I choose to hear false statements from.

As I said before, I will pray for you.

In other words, I am commanded to share the Gospel, as the Word of God commands. That is what God tells me to do. I do not put a sugar coating on it, as some of those supposedly "ministering" to wiccans do. I'm just going to tell you the truth. If you want to call the Word of God a delusion, I can see why. If I was a witch, I'd pray very hard to Lord and Lady out there that the Bible was full of delusions.

However, God's Word is no delusion, and your sins are no delusion either.

Pray for yourself. The sinner's prayer might be a place to start. God does not accept prayers from an unrepentant practioner of witchcraft, unless they are prayers of repentance.

[technomage]

If you want to call the Word of God a delusion, I can see why.

I do not call the word of God a delusion. If you ever--ever--speak a word from God to me, I shall attend to it with all of my heart. So far, you have only given me the word of Athanasius ... and frankly, that's not worth the time of day.

Nor is continued interaction with you worth the time of day. Farewell. You shall be in my prayers, even if your words are not on my monitor.

[Krusader]

I do not call the word of God a delusion. If you ever--ever--speak a word from God to me, I shall attend to it with all of my heart. So far, you have only given me the word of Athanasius ... and frankly, that's not worth the time of day.

Nor is continued interaction with you worth the time of day. Farewell. You shall be in my prayers, even if your words are not on my monitor.

As I said, Justin, the only prayer God will accept from you is one of repentance. And I gave you a lot of Scripture from God's Word above, Scripture you failed to deal with. How sad. However, in case you didn't see all that Scripture, here you go:



Ex. 7:11Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments (The magicians matched the rod turned into a serpent, river turned into blood and creating frogs by their secret arts).

Ex. 22:18Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live (God said that witches were to be put to death. This is an indication of their destructive power).

Lev. 19:26Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times (Eating and drinking blood is spiritually defiling. Only seek God for hidden knowledge).

Lev. 19:31Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God (This is occultism and spiritually defiling).

Lev. 20:6And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people (God said that this sin of spiritual adultery is punishable by death).

Lev. 20:27A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones; their blood shall be upon them (This is spiritual prostitution punishable by physical and spiritual death).

Num. 23:23Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought! (Obedience to God and The Bible, and not sinning is your only protection.)

Deut. 18:10-11There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer (These are magic practices and spiritism).

I Sam. 15:23For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king (Rebellion against God is witchcraft; witchcraft which is punishable by death. What about certain things that Christians suffer? Could some of them be caused by rebellion?).

I Sam. 28:7Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor (This is necromancy - seance).

II Kings 17:17And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger (This is enchantments - divination - wizardry).

II Kings 21:6And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger (God's anger is directed at those who practice witchcraft).

II Chron. 28:3Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel (These abominable practices of the nations provoke God to anger).

II Chron. 33:6And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger (This is enchantments - witchcraft).

Isa. 2:6Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers (These are diviners - soothsayers who strike hands).

Isa. 8:19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? (This is communication with the dead).

Isa. 19:3And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards (This is to put a spell upon).

Isa. 44:25That frustrateth the tokens of the lairs, and maketh diviners mad: that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish (These people may lose their minds).

Isa. 47:9But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments (Death comes from sorcery and enchantment).

Jer. 27:9 Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, not to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you saying, You shall not serve the king of Babylon (This is enchantments - divination).

Jer. 29:8 For thus saith the LORD of host, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed (This is enchantments - divination).

Eze. 13:17-23Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them. And say, Thus saith the LORD GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you? And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies? Wherefore thus saith the LORD GOD; Behold I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. (This includes sadness, backsliding, capture, death and eternal damnation.)

Dan. 1:20And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm (This is enchantments - astrology).

Dan. 2:10The Chaldeans answered before the king, and said, There is not a man upon the earth that can shew the king's matter: therefore there is no king, lord, nor ruler, that asked such things at any magician, or astrologer, or Chaldean (This is astrology).

Dan. 4:7Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof (This is astrology).

Mic. 5:12And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers (This is God's attitude towards witchcraft).

Nah. 3:4Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts (Witchcraft controlled nations and families).

Zech. 10:2For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd (This is harlotry brought from Egypt).

Mal. 3:5And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts (God will judge these practices).

Luke 4:6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it (Satan has been given tremendous power over the earth and its kingdom. Amplified Bible says all their magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, and grace of the kingdom).

Acts 8:9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one (Simon practiced magic and controlled the City of Samaria).

Acts 16:16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying (The power of divination and fortune telling).

Acts 19:19Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver (The power of people buying occult books. I had a book burning to get rid of books that should not have been in my library).

Mal. 3:5And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts (God will judge these practices).

Rom. 13:2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation (Rebellion against God will cause your damnation).

II Cor. 4:4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them (Satan has the power to blind. Many Christians are partially blinded).

Gal. 5:19-21Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatory, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Not only witchcraft, but these other sins can send you to Hell).

I Tim. 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils (Christians can depart from the faith).

II Tim. 3:8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith (Men opposed the truth will oppose Christianity).

Rev. 2:24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden (There is a great depth to the evil system of Satan).

Rev. 6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held (Satan has the power to kill when God does not protect you).

Rev. 9:20-21And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts (They were worshipping demons and idols, and committing other sins).

Rev. 13:2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat and great authority (Satan has great authority and he can give it to whom he chooses).

Rev. 18:23And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth: for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived (Merchants practiced witchcraft and deceived nations).

Rev. 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the and abominable, murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in Hell: which is the second death (If you practice these, then you will be cast into the lake which burns with fire and brimstone).

Rev. 22:15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie (These are without the Kingdom of Heaven, i.e., in Hell).

[Durthorin]

The problem is that one of your chief spokesman here did claim that the Bible was legitimate at one time, and did contain God's Word - as far as wiccans being allowed here, it's TWEB's choice to do so. If it was up to me, you'd never be given space to propagate something which is such an abomination to God.

So you would not suffer a witch to live if it was up to you?

Blessed be, Dur

[Krusader]

So you would not suffer a witch to live if it was up to you?

Blessed be, Dur

I am not living in the Old Testamant era, under O.T. law. The fact is that we all deserve to die eternally, because the wages of sin is death. Now, you think you aren't a sinner (on the surface, I suppose), but all men have a conscience, according to Romans 1, and somewhere in the back of your mind, you know there will be a reckoning. Who will be your Advocate on that Day?

My Advocate will be Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, who paid those wages for me, and I have become God's righteousness in Christ. Wow, what a swap!

[Durthorin]

I am not living in the Old Testamant era, under O.T. law. The fact is that we all deserve to die eternally, because the wages of sin is death. Now, you think you aren't a sinner (on the surface, I suppose), but all men have a conscience, according to Romans 1, and somewhere in the back of your mind, you know there will be a reckoning. Who will be your Advocate on that Day?

My Advocate will be Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, who paid those wages for me, and I have become God's righteousness in Christ. Wow, what a swap!

As a Pagan I need no advocate, my Gods and my ancestors have witnessed my actions and know the intent of my heart.

Blessed Be, Dur

[Ex Nihilo]

I am not living in the Old Testamant era, under O.T. law. The fact is that we all deserve to die eternally, because the wages of sin is death. Now, you think you aren't a sinner (on the surface, I suppose), but all men have a conscience, according to Romans 1, and somewhere in the back of your mind, you know there will be a reckoning. Who will be your Advocate on that Day?

My Advocate will be Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, who paid those wages for me, and I have become God's righteousness in Christ. Wow, what a swap!

Do you think that Jesus really talked to the pagans of his day in this fasion? With repeated attempts at biblical verse?

I say nay, good man. I pray that God forgives my sins, and believe that Jesus died on the cross for us, but you are treating people that clearly have no interest in Christ with contempt that is undeserved. I don't remember Jesus beating people over the head with scripture such as this, but guiding people who came to him.

Please stop, you cannot convert one against their will, no more than you can convince them to change their ideals through coercion or fear, for they do not recognize evil or hell in the sense that you do. Your paradigm is wrong to speak with them.

So please stop. I read this whole thread, and I believe that witchcraft is wrong, but I like all of them solely based on their reactions more than I would ever like you, and that shouldn't be happening.

(Sorry for grouping you all as the "them" it was just linguistically simpler for me)

[technomage]

Do you think that Jesus really talked to the pagans of his day in this fasion? With repeated attempts at biblical verse?

I say nay, good man.

Krusader is a she.

I pray that God forgives my sins, and believe that Jesus died on the cross for us, but you are treating people that clearly have no interest in Christ with contempt that is undeserved.

Oh, but to Carol, it's completely deserved. She treats everyone not in her preferred club with the same contempt--Charismatics, Krishnas, Wiccans, Catholics (IIRC), and in general anyone who disagrees with her.

(Sorry for grouping you all as the "them" it was just linguistically simpler for me)

No problem--grammar doesn't always play nice.

[Ex Nihilo]

Krusader is a she.

Oops.

Oh, but to Carol, it's completely deserved. She treats everyone not in her preferred club with the same contempt--Charismatics, Krishnas, Wiccans, Catholics (IIRC), and in general anyone who disagrees with her.

I used to be this way, then I realized that Jesus didn't act this way in the bible.

No problem--grammar doesn't always play nice.

You should see my spelling.