Announcement

Collapse

Christianity 201 Guidelines

orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.

The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Joseph of Arimathea Buying Linen On Passover?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
    I already quoted from Jesus where he specifically says that even his opponents allowed for certain work to be done on the sabbath. We don't have to look at any extrabiblical sources. It's right there in the Bible. This whole thread is a non-issue.
    I don't believe it's as simple as that, as outlined in my previous posts. You're free to leave the thread if you think it's a non-issue though.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      so was the actual passover on thursday or friday? because they ate the passover on thursday and Jesus was crucified and died on friday.
      According to your quote of:
      Exodus 12:16 On the first day you shall have a holy assembly, and another holy assembly on the seventh day; no work at all shall be done on them, except what must be eaten by every person, that alone may be prepared by you.

      it seems like only on the first and seventh day are you not to work.

      edit: never mind I forgot about the Jewish day being from sundown to sundown.
      No, no, you actually hit on a point of tension between the Synoptics and John. Craig breaks it down in the link I provided,

      Source: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defenders-1-podcast/transcript/s12-01

      According to Jewish regulations, the slaughter of the Passover lambs in the Temple began at 3 o’clock in the afternoon on the 14th of Nisan. At 3pm on the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan, the slaughter of the Passover lambs began in the Temple. Then the lambs were to be eaten that night after nightfall had come. Listen to this. According to John’s chronology, when Jesus died on the cross at 3pm on the 14th of Nisan, it was at the very same time that the chief priests in the Temple were beginning to sacrifice the Passover lambs to God. They didn’t realize that in instigating Jesus’ crucifixion at the hands of the Romans, they were in effect offering a sacrifice to God that would once and for all abolish the animal sacrifices that they were carrying out at that very same hour in the Temple as Jesus was being crucified. As Paul would later write in 1 Corinthians 5:7, “For Christ, our Passover lamb has been sacrificed.”

      So on John’s account then, Jesus died at the time of the Passover sacrifice – prior to the Passover meal that night. The problem here is that according to Mark and the other Gospels, Jesus ate the Passover with his disciples in the upper room on the night before his crucifixion. In Mark 14:12 we read, “And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the passover lamb, his disciples said to him, ‘Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the passover?’” Jesus then gives instructions to the disciples to prepare the Passover in the upper room. John agrees that Jesus did share a last supper with his disciples on Thursday night in the upper room prior to his betrayal by Judas and his arrest. But how could this have been a Passover meal if the lambs weren’t slaughtered in the Temple until three o’clock on Friday afternoon, as John says? How could Jesus be eating the Passover with his disciples Thursday night when the lambs weren’t even slaughtered until 3pm the next day?

      © Copyright Original Source



      One resolution to this tension can be found in understanding that two reckonings of time used in Palestine. One was Galilean/Pharisaic measure of time, the other was Judean/Sadduceeic measure of time.

      Comment


      • #18
        so if John's timeline is right, then they ate the passover early because Jesus was going to die on passover. but does that mean that the "do not work" edict did not start until Friday at 6pm so Jeoseph could still buy linen legally?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          so if John's timeline is right, then they ate the passover early because Jesus was going to die on passover.
          That's correct, but there's no reason to assume that either timeline is wrong exactly. It could be that both timelines are correct, and that they just happen to cross over thanks to the difference in calendars.

          but does that mean that the "do not work" edict did not start until Friday at 6pm so Jeoseph could still buy linen legally?
          No, because since Friday was (still) Passover, there was a double Sabbath. The "do not work" edict would have been effect for both Friday and Saturday (and late Thursday).

          One of the big issues that tends to confuse people is that Jesus died on Preparation Day, but preparation for what? Preparation for Passover, or preparation of the Sabbath. Most Christians think that Jesus likely died on Passover, which would have been that Friday, which would have also been Preparation Day for the Sabbath.

          It's all kinda confusing, I know. I'm still trying to make sure I got it all sorted in my head as well. This is the conclusion to the calendar dilemma I mentioned in the post above,

          Source: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defenders-1-podcast/transcript/s12-01

          Various solutions have been offered to this puzzle. One of the most plausible, I think, is that due to competing calendars that were in use in first century Palestine, the sacrifices may have been offered on more than one day.[3] According to the Pharisees and the people from Galilee, they reckoned the days beginning at sunrise and ending at the following sunrise. So days would begin in the morning at 6am and they would end at 6am on the following day. But the Sadducees and the people from Judea reckoned days as beginning at sunset and ending with the next sunset. So for the Judeans, their calendar reckoned days from 6pm in the evening until 6pm the next evening. In our modern day and age, we adopt what I think is the very weird convention that the day begins in the middle of the night at midnight and then goes until the next midnight, which when you think about it is really a crazy way of reckoning days. This difference in reckoning days completely throws off the dating of certain events as you can see on the chart:


          According to the Galilean reckoning, the 14th of Nisan begins at about 6am on the day that we call Thursday. But for the Judean, the 14th of Nisan didn’t begin until twelve hours later at 6pm on the day that we call Thursday. So when the Galileans following Jewish regulations slay the Passover lamb on the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan, what day does he do it on? Well, he does it on Thursday. But when the Judean offers his lamb and sacrifice on the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan, what day is that? Well, it is Friday. When night falls he then feasts on the lamb which by his reckoning is the 15th of Nisan. Thus in order to meet the needs of both Galilean and Pharisaical sensibilities on the one hand, and of the Judean and Sadducceean sensibilities on the other hand, the Temple priesthood would have had to have made Passover sacrifices on both Thursday and Friday. Jesus, as a Galilean and aware of his impending arrest, chose to celebrate the Passover Thursday night, whereas the chief priests and scribes responsible for Jesus’ arrest went by the Judean and Sadduccean calendar as John says. Although we have no evidence that Passover sacrifices were made on both days, I think this solution is very plausible on the face of it. The population of Jerusalem swelled to around 125,000 people during the Passover festival. It would simply be logistically impossible for the priests in the Temple to sacrifice enough lambs for 125,000 people between 3 o’clock in the afternoon and 6 o’clock in one day. They must have sacrificed on more than one day in order to furnish enough Passover lambs for the pilgrims that were in town. That would make it entirely possible for Jesus and his disciples to celebrate the Passover Thursday night prior to his arrest.

          © Copyright Original Source

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            As you're no doubt aware, it doesn't have to be an either/or. There are solutions that account for both the Synoptic and Johannine reading. William Lane Craig offers one that I think carries some weight here.
            I'd have to investigate further into different calendars being used. From what I remember about the Jewish calendar, there was a dispute between the Qumran community and the Temple cult as to whether or not a lunar or a solar calendar should be used. DSS scholars have argued, consequently, that the debate over the calendar led to the creation of the Qumran community.

            However, I don't know if we can necessarily extrapolate that debate to early Christians.

            Comment


            • #21
              Joseph could have gotten the cloth and paid for it later

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by psstein View Post
                I'd have to investigate further into different calendars being used. From what I remember about the Jewish calendar, there was a dispute between the Qumran community and the Temple cult as to whether or not a lunar or a solar calendar should be used. DSS scholars have argued, consequently, that the debate over the calendar led to the creation of the Qumran community.

                However, I don't know if we can necessarily extrapolate that debate to early Christians.
                Well we wouldn't be extrapolating the debate to early Christians, but to early Jews. Well, okay, Jewish Christians. It could be that one group of Christians, a Judean group got the story one way, and another group, a Galilean group got it the other way due to when they were looking at their watches (in a manner of speaking). The only time we would see this confusion is during the Passion narrative (and maybe slightly after) since that's the only time a large group of Galileans would encounter a large group of Judeans (that I'm aware of), and Jesus' main body of disciples, including himself, being Galilean, well there you go.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Joseph could have gotten the cloth and paid for it later
                  That is true, but I suppose the question would be why? Was he expecting someone to die? Did he know that Jesus was going to be executed on Passover?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    That is true, but I suppose the question would be why? Was he expecting someone to die? Did he know that Jesus was going to be executed on Passover?
                    No I mean he needed a cloth so he went to someone and asked for it saying he will pay for it after the sabbath. He was given the cloth and he took it and buried Jesus

                    Just a conjecture

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                      1. I don't see why buying an item (or even selling an item) would necessarily even count as work.
                      2. Regardless, the law clearly allowed certain urgent work to be done on the sabbath.

                      Luke 14:5-6
                      And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day? And they could not answer him again to these things.
                      Without even being an expert on the law as applied to Second Temple Judaism, my first guess, based on pure logic, would be that if two laws conflict -- i.e. keeping the Sabbath and burying a corpse -- the one would trump the other. Burying the body had more priority in this case

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        No I mean he needed a cloth so he went to someone and asked for it saying he will pay for it after the sabbath. He was given the cloth and he took it and buried Jesus

                        Just a conjecture
                        Oh ok, right, well that would go perfectly well with the Mishnah passage I mentioned earlier I think.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          so if John's timeline is right, then they ate the passover early because Jesus was going to die on passover. but does that mean that the "do not work" edict did not start until Friday at 6pm so Jeoseph could still buy linen legally?
                          I think there has always been an allowance for burial preparation, because they didn't wait 3 or 4 days like we do to bury, and the didn't embalm. They buried as soon as practical, so it was acceptable to make preparation accordingly.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            I think there has always been an allowance for burial preparation, because they didn't wait 3 or 4 days like we do to bury, and the didn't embalm. They buried as soon as practical, so it was acceptable to make preparation accordingly.
                            Yeah I would think so

                            Another thought is that he could have gotten the cloth from a gentile merchant

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Just a couple notes on the German that you wondered about.
                              Das. is an abbreviation for dasselbe, “the same.” It’s just citing the same reference as the previous one.
                              Most of the comments are variations on a theme. The principle is based on the fact that people can prepare a meal the previous day to eat on the Sabbath. From that they concluded that you can’t buy anything, but you can go to your customary butcher and say “Give me some meat,” and he can freely give it to you, and put it on your tab without haggling over a price. But measuring is work. You can count eggs, but you can’t weigh meat, or settle on a price. If you want a beer, the bartender can pour you one, but he can’t measure it. So if the glass holds exactly a pint, he can’t fill it all the way.
                              But he says that only applies to food. There was no evidence at his disposal for other wares.
                              (Strack or Billerbeck suggests Mark was using an Aramaic source, and mistranslated an Aramaic word that could mean either “bought” or “took.”)
                              Maybe that’s how Joseph ended up with 75 pounds of spices; he said, “Give me some spices,” (I suppose they could be edible) but he couldn’t say how much it should weigh. He only wanted 10 pounds, but the merchant emptied his storeroom, and put it on Joseph’s tab of course.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Just Passing Through View Post
                                Just a couple notes on the German that you wondered about.
                                Das. is an abbreviation for dasselbe, “the same.” It’s just citing the same reference as the previous one.
                                Most of the comments are variations on a theme. The principle is based on the fact that people can prepare a meal the previous day to eat on the Sabbath. From that they concluded that you can’t buy anything, but you can go to your customary butcher and say “Give me some meat,” and he can freely give it to you, and put it on your tab without haggling over a price. But measuring is work. You can count eggs, but you can’t weigh meat, or settle on a price. If you want a beer, the bartender can pour you one, but he can’t measure it. So if the glass holds exactly a pint, he can’t fill it all the way.
                                But he says that only applies to food. There was no evidence at his disposal for other wares.
                                (Strack or Billerbeck suggests Mark was using an Aramaic source, and mistranslated an Aramaic word that could mean either “bought” or “took.”)
                                Maybe that’s how Joseph ended up with 75 pounds of spices; he said, “Give me some spices,” (I suppose they could be edible) but he couldn’t say how much it should weigh. He only wanted 10 pounds, but the merchant emptied his storeroom, and put it on Joseph’s tab of course.
                                Wow! That's great Just Passing Through. That really helps. My German is so bad. I could pick up on a lot of that, but I couldn't tie the ends together. Thanks! I think the reason I thought "Das." was a tractate was because it has passage numbering after it. Duh.

                                Well that opens a whole nuther sort of thinking on the subject. Very interesting stuff.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Thoughtful Monk, 03-15-2024, 06:19 PM
                                35 responses
                                166 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by KingsGambit, 03-15-2024, 02:12 PM
                                4 responses
                                49 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Thoughtful Monk  
                                Started by Chaotic Void, 03-08-2024, 07:36 AM
                                10 responses
                                119 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post mikewhitney  
                                Started by Cow Poke, 02-29-2024, 07:55 AM
                                14 responses
                                71 views
                                3 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by Cow Poke, 02-28-2024, 11:56 AM
                                13 responses
                                59 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Working...
                                X