Did the Meccans of Arabia Worship Yahweh (YHWH) God? (Ishmaelites in Mecca?)

[Narnian]

You don't have any problem with the idea that Sarah supposedly had a child when she was 100 years old, but the idea of Abraham walking for three months to get to Mecca is untenable?

I don't have a problem with her age, because - myth or literal - it's written there in the text! But there is nothing in the OT to suggest, even remotely, that Abraham went to Mecca - if it even existed 3000 years ago - and left Ishmael there.

I'm still unsure exactly what your posts on this thread are trying to ascertain.

I'm not exactly sure what Hugenot is on about either, Barnasha. My point is that the Ishmaelites = arabs was just a myth made up by muslims to create legitimacy, independence and nationalism. Arab Christians and arab Jews existed for centuries before the "muhammadism arabs" invented themselves as a "race".

Who are the arabs anyway? Arabic speakers? And who are the Jews? Both sets of people are a mixture of african, european and asians. The Europeans are a mixture of Celts, Vikings, North Africans and Persians. Do we call ourselves Vikings?

We are ALL just one big human race. We all share 94% of the same genes, and I don't believe in any "Jewish" or "arab" RACE. It's about time we matured and got over this childish tendency to cling to tribal identities. Even Jesus taught this 2000 years ago when he said he had come to turn "family against family".

Arabs are not Ishmaelites, anymore than Jews are Isaacites or the Irish are Muhammadites. Get over it!

[smaneck]

I don't have a problem with her age, because - myth or literal - it's written there in the text
But there is nothing in the OT to suggest, even remotely, that Abraham went to Mecca - if it even existed 3000 years ago - and left Ishmael there.

So the fact Sarah supposedly had a child at 100 is written down in the OT makes it more likely to be true than the tradtiion that Abraham visited Mecca because it didn't get written down in the OT. Never mind the fact that the OT account is written a thousand years after the fact.

Arabs are not Ishmaelites, anymore than Jews are Isaacites

On that at least we agree, but this is really not about race. But you have consistently argued in an entirely different direction that God revealed Himself only through the Jews. That's hardly an affirmation of the oness of humanity!

[barnasha]

I don't have a problem with her age, because - myth or literal - it's written there in the text! But there is nothing in the OT to suggest, even remotely, that Abraham went to Mecca - if it even existed 3000 years ago - and left Ishmael there.



I'm not exactly sure what Hugenot is on about either, Barnasha. My point is that the Ishmaelites = arabs was just a myth made up by muslims to create legitimacy, independence and nationalism. Arab Christians and arab Jews existed for centuries before the "muhammadism arabs" invented themselves as a "race".

Who are the arabs anyway? Arabic speakers? And who are the Jews? Both sets of people are a mixture of african, european and asians. The Europeans are a mixture of Celts, Vikings, North Africans and Persians. Do we call ourselves Vikings?

We are ALL just one big human race. We all share 94% of the same genes, and I don't believe in any "Jewish" or "arab" RACE. It's about time we matured and got over this childish tendency to cling to tribal identities. Even Jesus taught this 2000 years ago when he said he had come to turn "family against family".

Arabs are not Ishmaelites, anymore than Jews are Isaacites or the Irish are Muhammadites. Get over it!

Typically Isaac and Ishmael are taken as metaphors for those peoples.

You are right there is no such thing as an 'Arab race', there is only the "homo sapiens" race.

[Narnian]

So the fact Sarah supposedly had a child at 100 is written down in the OT makes it more likely to be true than the tradition that Abraham visited Mecca because it didn't get written down in the OT. Never mind the fact that the OT account is written a thousand years after the fact.

Textual evidence consistently demonstrates that the writers of this myth , in its oldest form - the textual form available to the arabs in 7th century AD - did not entertain the idea that Abraham made an epic journey to Mecca to leave Ishmael there 3000 years ago, anymore than Abraham went to St Moritz.

But you have consistently argued in an entirely different direction that God revealed Himself only through the Jews. That's hardly an affirmation of the oness of humanity!

Where I think you got this idea about me from was the Deut prophecy about a prophet rising out of his own people/tribe. I was arguing that the text does not allow a reinterpretation about Muhammad, 1500kms from Jerusalem, with hundreds of tribes inbetween. Whether I like it or not, the Jews, like all tribes, loved themselves only. "From your own brethren" means nothing other than from the Jewish tribe, not some tribe on the far side of the arabian peninsula, 1200 years later! Now, that has nothing to do with my beliefs on what "should" be. We are looking at what can be ascertained in the text.

You claim not to be a fundamentalist, so why are you taking this position when it comes to Islam and Bahai?

[Narnian]

That should have read:

I was arguing that the text does not allow a reinterpretation about Abraham, travelling 1500kms from Jerusalem, with hundreds of tribes inbetween

[Ibn Abu Talib]

We're looking at arabia in 1800BC, if we are to believe this story literally. I don't know a lot about that period in time, but modern genetic evidence points to a migration of people TO Israel and Mesopotamia, ie NORTH, not south. Obviously they were fleeing the desert in search of more fertile lands.

Answering-islam refutes the Ishmael connection on many levels. They say it is wishful thinking that is refuted by Muslim traditions for two reasons:

The Genealogy of Ishmael says other people are Arabs
In Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad :

Ishmael is the son of Ibrahim (Abraham) b. Tarih (Azar) b. Nahur b. Sarugh b. Rau`u b. Falikh b. `Aybar b. Shalikh b. Arfakhshadh b. Sam (Shem) b. Nuh (Noah) (Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, p. 3).
Then we have another line from Noah, where we read :
`Ad b. `Aus b. Iram b. Sam b. Nuh and Thamud and Jadis the two sons of `Abir b. Iram b. Sam b. Nuh, and Tasm and `Imlaq and Umayan the sons of Lawidh b. Sam b. Nuh are all Arabs. Nabit b. Isma`il begat Yashjub and the line runs: Ta`rub-Tayrah-Bahur-Muqawwan-Udad-`Adnan. (Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, p. 4).
In other words, Ishmael's great-great-great-great...-great uncles were already the Arabs.

I have taken a look at Shamoun's "Ishmael is not the father of Muhammad" article. Not surprisingly, me mostly argues from ignorance and silence. Like Hugenot, he also committed the mistake of thinking that Muslims regard Ishmael as the originator of the Arab race. As was proven earlier, however, this is not true.

The only point worth responding to is the problem involving the time span between some of the ancestors of Muhammad(saw) as recorded in his genealogy. About this, Allama Shibli Numani(rha) writes: "The main cause of this mistake was the ignorance of the fact that the Arabs were content with the names of notable ancestors, and passed over the intermediaries. Moreover, they did not doubt Adnan's descent from Ishmael, so they considered it sufficient to enumerate the names only upto Adnan and neglected his predecessors, excepting a few worthy of note. Still there were many experts who knew these gaps. Al Tabari, in his history, says: "I knew a genealogist who narrated the names of forty generations from Ma'add to Ishmael; and quoted verses of the Arab poets in support. He also told me that he had compared this pedigree with the works of the Christians and Jews and hand found the number correct, though names differed""

[Huguenot]

Genesis 25:12-16 NKJV

(New King James Version)

12 Now this is the genealogy of Ishmael, Abraham’s son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah’s maidservant, bore to Abraham. 13 And these were the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; then Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, 14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, 15 Hadar,[a] Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. 16 These were the sons of Ishmael and these were their names, by their towns and their settlements, twelve princes according to their nations.

Footnotes:

v 15 - Masoretic Text reads Hadad

Additionally..................

Nebaioth is also mentioned as the brother of Mahalath, one of Esau's wives:

"...and Esau saw that the daughters of Canaan pleased not Isaac his father; so Esau went unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives that he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebaioth, to be his wife... (Genesis 28:8-9)

"...Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Oholibamah the daughter of Anah, the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite, and Basemath Ishmael's daughter, sister of Nebaioth... (Genesis 36:2-3)

[Esau is the ancestor of the Edomites]

Nebaioth is again mentioned as Ishmael's firstborn in the genealogies of the First Book of Chronicles:

"...These are their generations: the first-born of Ishmael, Nebaioth; then Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, Mishma, and Dumah, Massa, Hadad, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedem. These are the sons of Ishmael... (1 Chronicles 1:29-31)

Kedar, the second son of Ishmael, ancestor of Muhammad?

Folks, we missed a very significant footnote here.

Look at the sons of Ishmael.

Kedar, the second son of Ishmael, ancestor of Mohammad?

What does the Qu'ran say about Mohammad's forefathers down from Ishmael???

[Huguenot]

I have taken a look at Shamoun's "Ishmael is not the father of Muhammad" article. Not surprisingly, me mostly argues from ignorance and silence. Like Hugenot, he also committed the mistake of thinking that Muslims regard Ishmael as the originator of the Arab race. As was proven earlier, however, this is not true.

The only point worth responding to is the problem involving the time span between some of the ancestors of Muhammad(saw) as recorded in his genealogy. About this, Allama Shibli Numani(rha) writes: "The main cause of this mistake was the ignorance of the fact that the Arabs were content with the names of notable ancestors, and passed over the intermediaries. Moreover, they did not doubt Adnan's descent from Ishmael, so they considered it sufficient to enumerate the names only upto Adnan and neglected his predecessors, excepting a few worthy of note. Still there were many experts who knew these gaps. Al Tabari, in his history, says: "I knew a genealogist who narrated the names of forty generations from Ma'add to Ishmael; and quoted verses of the Arab poets in support. He also told me that he had compared this pedigree with the works of the Christians and Jews and hand found the number correct, though names differed""

Well, so far we have more questions than when we started.

Take the word: Arabia

IMO, this could be from Iraq to the Sea of Arabia - i.e. Yemen

Or, from Syria - Nabatenia and Jordan to Iran and Qatar. (Persian Gulf)

Now, back to: Ishmaelites

I have proof that Gideon darn near killed all the Ishmaelites in Judges 8 NIV

Who were these people? Recall that in Psalms, I quoted where they were included and the terms tents was used - i.e. tribes of Edomites, Moabites, Ishmaelites. [See my O.P.]

Since we are discussing Pre-Islamic times, what other source do we have but the Bible - the Holy Word of God?

[Huguenot]

That should have read:

I was arguing that the text does not allow a reinterpretation about Abraham, travelling 1500kms from Jerusalem, with hundreds of tribes inbetween

Today, I was reading Hebrews 11 NIV

So, here is a Biblical discourse desribing who Abraham was and where he lives..........

Since I brought up Shem, I will start with Noah......................

I would also like you to track the sons of Noah, and I found where Shem and Cush figure in the history of Yemen and Cush - i.e. Africa, Queen of Sheba, etc.

Hebrews 11:7-39 NIV

By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

[No where did Abraham live in a house - in any city]

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring - {Greek: seed] will be reckoned." 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.

[This is important - at first the Egyptians called Joseph an Ishmaelite - very true!]

23By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.

24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[e]

32And what more shall I say?

I do not have time to tell about Gideon, [See Judges 7 NIV - Judges 8 NIV] Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

[Huguenot]

So the fact Sarah supposedly had a child at 100 is written down in the OT makes it more likely to be true than the tradtiion that Abraham visited Mecca because it didn't get written down in the OT. Never mind the fact that the OT account is written a thousand years after the fact.

Do you deny the truth of the oral histories? Then on what account do you trust the Qu'ran which is based on the Talmud, a written account of oral stories.

Hello?

And, a visit to Mecca, if it existed in ancient times is not the same as building a house and living in a city.

So you would claim that the Bible is in error for calling Abraham a tent dweller?

And, why would a shepherd live in a city?

[Huguenot]

I'm not exactly sure what Hugenot is on about either...

Welcome to my thread, and here we have a fearless invesigation of the truth!

I am seeking to understand who the Ishmaelites were and the truth about the Pre-Islamic people of Mecca and the idols they worshipped.

BTW, so far there is no evidence that the Ishmaelites - who ever this refers to as the term evolved over time, and the people didn't remain a cohesive tribe - worshipping the ONE True(TM) God of Abraham.

My point is that the Ishmaelites = arabs was just a myth made up by muslims to create legitimacy, independence and nationalism. Arab Christians and arab Jews existed for centuries before the "muhammadism arabs" invented themselves as a "race".

Interesting, and I also posted that the term became general to desribe those outside of the Mosiac Covenant.

Additionally I posted.........

So consider that the Ishmaelites are mentioned as a distinct tribe in the Assyrian records. They later intermarried with and were absorbed by the Midianites and other local tribes. In Genesis 37:25-28 ; Genesis 39:1, the Ishmaelites are called the Midianites and in Judges 7:1 read through to Judges 8:22-24- the Midianites are called the Ishmaelites. The identification cannot be made any stronger.

Midianites (Genesis 37:25-28; Genesis 39:1; Judges 8:24).

Ba``alah was one of their gods. el Ba'al etc.

According to the Hebrew Bible, Midian (Hebrew: מִדְיָן, Standard Midyan Tiberian Miḏyān; Arabic مدين; "Strife; judgment") was the fourth son of Abraham, the patriarch of the Israelites, and Keturah, his concubine. (Gen 25:2-6 and 1Chronicles 1:32).

Midian had five brothers, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Ishbak, and Shuah. (Genesis 25:1-6) Abraham sent his sons by Keturah to live in the east, far from his son Isaac.

Midian was the father of Ephah, Epher, Hanoch, Abida, and Eldaah.

Sons of Abraham by wife in order of birth

Hagar Ishmael (1)

Sarah Isaac (2)

Keturah Zimran Jokshan Medan Midian Ishbak Shuah

Midian's descendants, the Midianites, settled in the territory east of the Jordan (Tobit 1:14) and also much of the area east of the Dead Sea (later occupied by Ammonites, Moabites and Edomites), and southward through the desert wilderness of the Arabah. During the time of the Exodus, their territory apparently also included portions of the Sinai Peninsula. They dominated this territory from roughly the twelfth through the tenth centuries BCE.

In Bible history, Midian was where Moses spent the 40 years between the time that he fled Egypt after killing an Egyptian who had been beating an Israelite,[1] and his return for leading the Israelites.[2] During those years, he married Zipporah, the daughter of Jethro, the priest of Midian. Exodus 3:1 implies that God's appearance in the burning bush at Mount Horeb occurred in Midian. As the Bible asserts, in later years the Midianites were often oppressive and hostile to the Israelites, at least partly as God's punishment for their idolatry.[3] By the time of the Judges, the Midianites, led by two princes Oreb (Hebrew: עֹרֵב, Orev) and Zeeb (Hebrew: זְאֵב, Z'ev) were raiding Israel with the use of swift camels, until they were decisively defeated by Gideon.[4] Today, the former territory of Midian is located in what is now a small area of western Saudi Arabia, southern Jordan, southern Israel and the Sinai.

In the Bible, the Midianites are described as worshipping a multitude of gods, including Baal-peor and the Asherah. [of the Ba'al's]

[Huguenot]

Genesis 17:4 (King James Version)

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations

I for one, I am amazed as we uncover that incredible history.

[Huguenot]

That should have read:

I was arguing that the text does not allow a reinterpretation about Abraham, travelling 1500kms from Jerusalem, with hundreds of tribes inbetween

Suggested Homework:

Ezekiel 27:21 NIV (New International Version)

" 'Arabia and all the princes of Kedar were your customers; they did business with you in lambs, rams and goats.

What was meant by Arabia in this context?

[Ibn Abu Talib]

Notice that I am ignoring Hugenot.

[smaneck]

Do you deny the truth of the oral histories? Then on what account do you trust the Qu'ran which is based on the Talmud, a written account of oral stories.

I trust the Qur'an on the basis of its message. The historical accuracy of the accounts contained therein are of little interest to me. But if we are talking about events written long after the fact, I don't think it mattes much in terms of accuracy whether the account is written one or two thousand years later.

So you would claim that the Bible is in error for calling Abraham a tent dweller?

I didn't say He wasn't a tent dweller.

And, why would a shepherd live in a city?

So far as I know the only city Abraham lived in was Ur. As I understand it He came to Mecca to help Ishmael build the Kaaba, not to live.