here's a problem I've been having regarding free-will

[mig_killer2]

I don't know if this belongs here or in the apologetics 301 forum

there are 2 solutions thus far i've seen
A: arminianism. arminianism however says that God wants everyone to be saved. if he does then why does he not go out of his way to give his message to everyone? I"ve heard one apologist say that he didn't do this because he knows people's heart and knew ahead of time that they would reject his message anyway. however, God would have created beings wih the full knowledge that they would go to hell, which makes God infinitely evil

B: Calvinism, which says only the elect are saved. however, this would mean that God created beings which he knew would go to hell, which would make him infintely evil

is there an answer to this contradiction?

[AngelDragon]

I like Molinism.

Voliscience is also a good idea.

[Tundrawolf]

I personally cannot answer either one, and I think it would be fairly true to say nobody actually does, either. God does not live in a box, and God has placed specific emphasis on free will.

I have a very emotional take on this too, and I can suggest the best course of action: Putting in a petition to God and waiting for a reply, and not being discouraged if you never get one.

More often than not God answers me, in one way or another.

No matter what, the memory of being held, and loved by God will never escape my memory and has literally kept me alive my 28 years. Armed with that knowledge, I can say that God is NOT evil.

I cannot and do not pretend to know what happens every second in the thought life of an unbeliever, however God does know, and there is a reason for everything.

[Raphael]

I don't know if this belongs here or in the apologetics 301 forum

there are 2 solutions thus far i've seen
A: arminianism. arminianism however says that God wants everyone to be saved. if he does then why does he not go out of his way to give his message to everyone? I"ve heard one apologist say that he didn't do this because he knows people's heart and knew ahead of time that they would reject his message anyway. however, God would have created beings wih the full knowledge that they would go to hell, which makes God infinitely evil

B: Calvinism, which says only the elect are saved. however, this would mean that God created beings which he knew would go to hell, which would make him infintely evil

is there an answer to this contradiction?

I'm a Calvinist, who used to be an Arminian.

As AngelDragon said Molinism is a popular opinion here.

In answer to the comment about Calvinism (I'll leave the Arminians to defend their view point as they are more than able to do so):

Romans 9:21-24(ESV) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

God's creating being that He knows are going to hell, is so that His glory for those whom he has made for mercy is shown to the world.
The whole of Romans 9 I feel deals rather nicely with the issue

[semmie]

I don't know if this belongs here or in the apologetics 301 forum

there are 2 solutions thus far i've seen
A: arminianism. arminianism however says that God wants everyone to be saved. if he does then why does he not go out of his way to give his message to everyone? I"ve heard one apologist say that he didn't do this because he knows people's heart and knew ahead of time that they would reject his message anyway. however, God would have created beings wih the full knowledge that they would go to hell, which makes God infinitely evil

B: Calvinism, which says only the elect are saved. however, this would mean that God created beings which he knew would go to hell, which would make him infintely evil

is there an answer to this contradiction?

hey mig,

i would say three things to you.

first, take AngelDragon's advice. check into Molinism. it's good for you, like milk.

second, if you'd like it, i offer some free advice (and remember--you get what you paid for) : your perception of both views (calvinism and arminianism) may be that they result in god being infinitely evil. but i would suggest to you that any view that truly rendered god almighty as infinitely evil would simply not have survived in the church for as long as these views have. i mention this only A) to caution you in dismissing these views simply because they currently appear to you to make god something he is not, and B) to encourage you to study, study, study. read as many books and articles as you can on these topics. get involved in discussions and debates (real life, internet, what-have-you). get a clearer understanding of what each side teaches, and what each side actually professes regarding god. i guarantee you that neither side tolerates the idea of god being infinitely evil.

third, i am a molinist, which tends to lean toward the arminian side. i wanted to ask you to clarify a bit, i guess, on the arminian side of the coin. hasn't god already gone out of his way to make his message known to the world?

pax christi.
sarah

[themuzicman]

I don't know if this belongs here or in the apologetics 301 forum

there are 2 solutions thus far i've seen
A: arminianism. arminianism however says that God wants everyone to be saved. if he does then why does he not go out of his way to give his message to everyone? I"ve heard one apologist say that he didn't do this because he knows people's heart and knew ahead of time that they would reject his message anyway. however, God would have created beings wih the full knowledge that they would go to hell, which makes God infinitely evil

B: Calvinism, which says only the elect are saved. however, this would mean that God created beings which he knew would go to hell, which would make him infintely evil

is there an answer to this contradiction?

Open view theism would fall into the general category of Arminiamism without exhaustive, definite foreknowledge.

It doesn't specifically answer the question of why doesn't go out of His way to give His message to everyone, but I don't know that the question has a lot of validity.

Think about it: God comes to earth as a human, performs many miracles, is rejected by men, beaten and killed. He then rises from the dead. Would you call that "going out of your way"? I would.

You might ask what impact that has today. There is a record of these events, which many have access to. God also has followers who are charged with preaching this good news to everyone.

The other half of this problem is this: How do you suggest that God inform everyone? Appear in power in the sky? God tried that with the people He'd just delivered from Israel, and they were afraid, and didn't want to hear it.

The shortcoming isn't God, but men.

Michael

[Silver Hand]

The whole of Romans 9 I feel deals rather nicely with the issue

Amen, brother! Personally, that chapter is what clinched it for me. T'was the final nail in the coffin of my dying Arminianism six years ago. And trust me, I came to Calvinism kicking and screaming!

James White (a reformed baptist apologist) had a great audio exegesis of Romans 9. I'll look around my collection and let you all know when find it.

[Silver Hand]

Also, is there anywhere on the web (besides the wiki article) that gives a good overview of Molinism?

I checked for William Lane Craig's book, and it's priced at over $200 on Amazon. I'd merely like to evaluate a position with which I'm not familiar, and there's no way I'd ever shell out $200 on a book (unless it's a REALLY nice Bible)

[FlimFlamboyant]

I decided a long time ago to just let God worry about the whole free will thing.

[AngelDragon]

Also, is there anywhere on the web (besides the wiki article) that gives a good overview of Molinism?

I checked for William Lane Craig's book, and it's priced at over $200 on Amazon. I'd merely like to evaluate a position with which I'm not familiar, and there's no way I'd ever shell out $200 on a book (unless it's a REALLY nice Bible)

http://www.gotquestions.org/molinism.html

http://www.theopedia.com/Molinism

http://www.nd.edu/~afreddos/papers/molinism.htm

From William Lane Craig:

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billc...niscience.html

There you go.

[themuzicman]

Molinism assumes both EDF and free will (regardless of their compatibility) and tries to explain its way out.

Unfortunately, you have non-existent beings making free will decisions, and that's where it falls apart.

Michael

[Frogwarrior]

What's EDF?

[Littlejoe]

Exhaustively Definitive Foreknowledge. IOW, knows not just every certainty...but every possiblity (Counter Factuals) also. If every LFW (Libertarian Free Will) decision could result in a million alternate realities, then all of those are known also. Most OVT's (but certainly not all) would say that God has foreknowledge of certainties, but not counter factuals.

LJ

[themuzicman]

Exhaustively Definitive Foreknowledge. IOW, knows not just every certainty...but every possiblity (Counter Factuals) also. If every LFW (Libertarian Free Will) decision could result in a million alternate realities, then all of those are known also. Most OVT's (but certainly not all) would say that God has foreknowledge of certainties, but not counter factuals.

LJ

Personally, I think God knows all possible courses of the future, but not what free will agents will do indefinitely in the future. Because humans can be predictable in the near future, given certain conditions, short term knowledge of what a free will agent may do is possible.

Michael

[semmie]

Also, is there anywhere on the web (besides the wiki article) that gives a good overview of Molinism?

I checked for William Lane Craig's book, and it's priced at over $200 on Amazon. I'd merely like to evaluate a position with which I'm not familiar, and there's no way I'd ever shell out $200 on a book (unless it's a REALLY nice Bible)

if you prefer something in a book form, i highly recommend the Only Wise God by Craig. it's a good read on the topic of molinism.