End of the age. . .?

[undead]

Chaldeans was used a lot in the Tanach.

I refer specifically to the use of the word as meaning a person versed in occult learning.

This is actually the main reason many want to date it 2nd century since it's assumed by them that the desolation is about Antiochus. Which we've shown is an error.

You've shown no such thing.

[John Goddard]

I refer specifically to the use of the word as meaning a person versed in occult learning.

What verse of Daniel?

You've shown no such thing.

You dated from 588 BC Exile when it is actually from command to rebuild Jerusalem with Nehemiah about 450 BC.

You dated from 588 BC Exile to 175 BC Antiochus as the first 69 weeks of years which would be 483 years, but you only have 413 years and explain it off as some accounting error God made in the prophecy to Daniel.

Either with Exile or Nehemiah, the math doesn't add up to Antiochus.

[undead]

What verse of Daniel?

Dan 2:2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.

etc.

You dated from 588 BC Exile when it is actually from command to rebuild Jerusalem with Nehemiah about 450 BC.

You dated from 588 BC Exile to 175 BC Antiochus as the first 69 weeks of years which would be 483 years, but you only have 413 years and explain it off as some accounting error God made in the prophecy to Daniel.

Either with Exile or Nehemiah, the math doesn't add up to Antiochus.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem

Which one? See here.

When we read the history we can understand that four times the Persian kings gave decrees to rebuild Jerusalem. They are:

First Command: This was given by the Persian King [Cyrus] in the year B.C 536. We read about this in Ezra 1:1-4. It is also a matter of interest that Isaiah prophesied about [Cyrus] 175 years before his birth.(Isaiah

Second Command: In the year 519 B.C. king Darius gave the second command to rebuild the city of Jerusalem (Ezra: 6:1-12)

Third Command: Ezra 7:12-22 says another decree was given by the King Artaxerxes. The time of this command is B.C 458.

Fourth Command: This last Command was again given by the king Artaxerxes in the year 445 B.C. We read about this in Nehemiah 2:1-8.

I think rather it is the case that the word is the command of God through Jeremiah, to restore Israel, because in prophetic tradition, Jerusalem means Israel. Thus 588BC.

As for Daniel's weeks, they are all approximate. There is a 71 year discrepancy down to BC 175 in Daniel's 62 weeks, but this can be accounted for by the fact that all second century dating methods misconceived dates in the Babylonian era, and that only approximate data is being used anyway.

Of course I don't discount a second fulfilment, as many prophecies do have two fulfilments. But the primary point with Daniel is that he is seeking to explain history in terms of theology, and it is the events themselves which act to serve as presages rather than the inspiration of the writer.

The literal 490 years that you have quoted is interesting, but it seems that that is really all there is. Jesus began to teach 490 years after that particular command to rebuild Jerusalem and after 3 1/2 years was crucified. OK, so what else is significant about the "prophecy"? Almost nothing, because in fact Christ was resurrected, too, so in fact the prophecy is a lie, because had it been a proper prophecy, it would have foretold his resurrection.

[franktalk]

"The Coming Prince" is a book about the dates surrounding Christ. It is very detailed and sets a date for the anouncement to rebuild Jerusalem (and the walls) and the day that Jesus rides His donkey into Jerusalem to anounce that He is King. Anderson is a futurist and he writes in 1880 or so that he just can't see Israel coming back as a nation. He interprets the dry bones prophesy correctly but can't see it happening. Much to his credit he held to his beliefs and Israel is a nation. Praise God.

[TyRockwell]

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem

Which one? See here.

The answer to 'which one?' is the first year of Cyrus the Persian, duh. The article you linked points to it, in Ezra 1:1-4.

The following sentence you wrote makes no sense, and shows you don't understand, you are reaching for straws:

I think rather it is the case that the word is the command of God through Jeremiah, to restore Israel, because in prophetic tradition, Jerusalem means Israel. Thus 588BC.

Jeremiah did not 'issue the decree.' A king issues a decree. Ezra 1:1 clearly tells you that Cyrus made a proclamation throughout his realm and put it into writing. This fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel 9:25. Your abuse of 'interpretation' that the decree was Jeremiah's word is nonsense. Cyrus decree was based on Jeremiah's word, that after the seventy years captivity, they would be released. It was Cyrus' decree that was the release.

As to your article's so-called 4th decree, it was the searched for and found, in the archives, further details of the proclamation of Cyrus, in his first year.

As for Daniel's weeks, they are all approximate. There is a 71 year discrepancy down to BC 175 in Daniel's 62 weeks, but this can be accounted for by the fact that all second century dating methods misconceived dates in the Babylonian era, and that only approximate data is being used anyway.

God is much better at math than you are. Jerusalem fell in 586 BC. Subtract seventy years, and the decree of Cyrus was in 516 BC.

The discrepency is your failure to account for the starts and stops of the rebuiding of the temple, as evidenced by the oppositions under Xerxes and Artaxerxes, because of which the Persian Darius, searched for and found Cyrus' decree. Only the actual time spent rebuilding the temple is counted in the 7 heptads, the 49 years.

The prophets had to keep exhorting the people of Israel to finish building the temple. See Haggai, and Zechariah.

The Persian Darius is not to be confused with Darius the Mede, as someone yesterday did, or someone you quoted yesterday did.

Of course I don't discount a second fulfilment, as many prophecies do have two fulfilments. But the primary point with Daniel is that he is seeking to explain history in terms of theology, and it is the events themselves which act to serve as presages rather than the inspiration of the writer.

Do you hear yourself? God is explaining future history in terms of theology, not 'Daniel is seeking to explain.' Daniel didn't make up his visions, or Nebuchanezzar's dreams, or Gabriel's visitations, or the visitation and message of the Angel of the Lord.

Even though the history of the empires is now known, some people, like probably you, fail to see the prophecy of the Roman empire in chapters 2 and 7 and 9 and 11. They do so to try to squeeze the 490 years to end in the Maccabean era. This is your Maccabean error.

The literal 490 years that you have quoted is interesting, but it seems that that is really all there is. Jesus began to teach 490 years after that particular command to rebuild Jerusalem and after 3 1/2 years was crucified. OK, so what else is significant about the "prophecy"? Almost nothing, because in fact Christ was resurrected, too, so in fact the prophecy is a lie, because had it been a proper prophecy, it would have foretold his resurrection.

You speak against the Truth. Let God be true, and every man a liar. All the evidence points to you being a human, but I could be wrong.

Who are you to instruct God on 'proper prophecy'?

Daniel was sealed. The meaning of the Messianic passages was kept hidden. Jesus' crucufixion was in the "Messiah will be cut off" in the middle of the seventieth week. The fact of his resurrection was hidden, but he had to be alive to fulfill the second half of the week.

The Apostle Paul spoke to the hiding of the resurrection, saying that if "the rulers of this age had understood it, they never would have crucified the Lord of glory." 1st Cor. 2:7-8

[franktalk]

Undead,

septuagint, from the Catholic Church.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13722a.htm

Wiki is trash

[John Goddard]

Dan 2:2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.

etc.

Why would you take it that way, it just means he was calling other Chaldeans besides them.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem

Which one? See here.

FIRST Ezra 1:2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

SECOND Ezra 6:3 In the first year of Cyrus the king the same Cyrus the king made a decree concerning the house of God at Jerusalem, Let the house be builded, the place where they offered sacrifices, and let the foundations thereof be strongly laid; the height thereof threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof threescore cubits;

THIRD Ezra 7:16 And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:

FOURTH Nehemiah 2:5 And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it.

The FOURTH is what Daniel refers to, since it is about rebuilding the entire city, not just the Temple which is what the other three are about, like the difference between building all of London as opposed to just Buckingham Palace.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

So around 450 BC, or 445 BC as you say, is where you need to start the 69 weeks here.

I think rather it is the case that the word is the command of God through Jeremiah, to restore Israel, because in prophetic tradition, Jerusalem means Israel. Thus 588BC.

This is just an end of exile, not a command to restore and to build Jerusalem.

As for Daniel's weeks, they are all approximate. There is a 71 year discrepancy down to BC 175 in Daniel's 62 weeks, but this can be accounted for by the fact that all second century dating methods misconceived dates in the Babylonian era, and that only approximate data is being used anyway.

There is only a discrepancy because you are trying to force dates to fit with Antiochus as the desolation which is an error.

There is none at all from Nehemiah 450 BC to Jesus 30s AD who curses Jerusalem to bear no more fruit of sacrifices, right to this day after his people the Romans who would become the Church destroyed it due to the curse.

Which is also foretold in Malachi 4:6 regarding the rejection of John the Baptist's proclamation of Jesus as Messiah.

Of course I don't discount a second fulfilment, as many prophecies do have two fulfilments. But the primary point with Daniel is that he is seeking to explain history in terms of theology, and it is the events themselves which act to serve as presages rather than the inspiration of the writer.

A point primarily influenced by your desire to include Antiochus. When interpreted correctly it is just shockingly accurate prophecy about Jesus 483 years after Nehemiah.

The literal 490 years that you have quoted is interesting, but it seems that that is really all there is. Jesus began to teach 490 years after that particular command to rebuild Jerusalem and after 3 1/2 years was crucified. OK, so what else is significant about the "prophecy"? Almost nothing, because in fact Christ was resurrected, too, so in fact the prophecy is a lie, because had it been a proper prophecy, it would have foretold his resurrection.

When Messiah will first appear is a pretty big deal. Not including everything else about his life, resurrection, or return in the Millennium doesn't make it any less valid regarding what the prophecy is intended to say, since it focuses mainly on curses and desolation Jerusalem will face. Not on the entire existence of Jesus.

[undead]

The answer to 'which one?' is the first year of Cyrus the Persian, duh. The article you linked points to it, in Ezra 1:1-4.

Nonense. Everyone knows that Jerusalem means faithful Israel.

And anyway, the decree pf Cyrus only related to the TEMPLE.

Jeremiah did not 'issue the decree.' A king issues a decree.

Only God could issue the decree concerning Israel, and he decreed it through his prophet.

As to your article's so-called 4th decree, it was the searched for and found, in the archives, further details of the proclamation of Cyrus, in his first year.

As I read it, the only decree relating to Jerusalem itself is in Neh 2, 445BC, which does not correlate with Christ, unless you convet to 360-day years or something stupid. The other decrees related specifically to the Temple.

God is much better at math than you are. Jerusalem fell in 586 BC. Subtract seventy years, and the decree of Cyrus was in 516 BC.

First return of the exiles 538BC, Decree of Cyrus 536BC

The discrepency is your failure to account for the starts and stops of the rebuiding of the temple, as evidenced by the oppositions under Xerxes and Artaxerxes, because of which the Persian Darius, searched for and found Cyrus' decree. Only the actual time spent rebuilding the temple is counted in the 7 heptads, the 49 years.

Gnostic.

The Persian Darius is not to be confused with Darius the Mede, as someone yesterday did, or someone you quoted yesterday did.

Darius the Mede did not exist.

Do you hear yourself? God is explaining future history in terms of theology, not 'Daniel is seeking to explain.' Daniel didn't make up his visions, or Nebuchanezzar's dreams, or Gabriel's visitations, or the visitation and message of the Angel of the Lord.

Daniel first part is typical Jewish supremacist fable. Daniel is exalted to unheard of positions over the Bablylonian magi and everyone else, and he even accepts worship from Nebuchadnezzar himself. in contradistinction to all other godly men who gave the worship to God. This was typical Jewish fable, designed to appeal to the Jews

This is your Maccabean error.

I think it was Daniel's error in getting his dates wrong.

But you have also got your dates wrong because you are using a command to build the temple, where the command to rebuild Jerusalem itself was 445BC, which meant Jesus began his ministry in 38AD (481 years).

You speak against the Truth. Let God be true, and every man a liar. All the evidence points to you being a human, but I could be wrong.

I could be a vampire.

Who are you to instruct God on 'proper prophecy'?

Your system fails to take into account the first 7 weeks, as though is was just part of the 62 weeks. The annointed is to come back after 7 weeks, and then be cut off in the 69th week (eg Jewish High Priest). whereas your system just says Messiah always refers to Christ. That is perverting the text of the prophecy.

It is you who are instructing God, and you are also falsifying the text.

Daniel was sealed. The meaning of the Messianic passages was kept hidden. Jesus' crucufixion was in the "Messiah will be cut off" in the middle of the seventieth week. The fact of his resurrection was hidden, but he had to be alive to fulfill the second half of the week.

The Apostle Paul spoke to the hiding of the resurrection, saying that if "the rulers of this age had understood it, they never would have crucified the Lord of glory." 1st Cor. 2:7-8

So why did not a single NT writer refer to this 70 week prophecy? Because they recognized it as applying to the Jewish High Priesthood, not Christ.

[TyRockwell]

Nonense. Everyone knows that Jerusalem means faithful Israel.

And anyway, the decree pf Cyrus only related to the TEMPLE.

Nonsense. Everyone knows that faithful Israel requires a temple. Jerusalem is secondary.

Only God could issue the decree concerning Israel, and he decreed it through his prophet.

Through his prophet God issued a prophetic word of a king issuing a decree. Daniel 9:25
Jeremiah only said that God had decreed the captivity and that it would last 70 years. He said don't even pray about the Temple or Jerusalem until the 70 years are finished

As I read it, the only decree relating to Jerusalem itself is in Neh 2, 445BC, which does not correlate with Christ, unless you convet to 360-day years or something stupid. The other decrees related specifically to the Temple.

God required the temple and the altar be built first. Jerusalem is secondary.

First return of the exiles 538BC, Decree of Cyrus 536BC

First return of the exiles after Cyrus' Return Decree, duh!

Gnostic.

Gesundheit!

Darius the Mede did not exist.

Cyrus made Gubaru the governor of the Babylonian territories after Cyrus conquered them. "Darius the Mede" may have been Cyrus' throne name in Babylon before he consolidated his rule, which would have been before the "First year of Cyrus." Also Darius probably means "the reign of Cyrus."

Daniel first part is typical Jewish supremacist fable. Daniel is exalted to unheard of positions over the Bablylonian magi and everyone else, and he even accepts worship from Nebuchadnezzar himself. in contradistinction to all other godly men who gave the worship to God. This was typical Jewish fable, designed to appeal to the Jews

The Bible is not fable, dude, duh.

You do greatly err not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.

I think it was Daniel's error in getting his dates wrong.

You got your false dates wrong. Do you believe in Santa Claus, too?

But you have also got your dates wrong because you are using a command to build the temple, where the command to rebuild Jerusalem itself was 445BC, which meant Jesus began his ministry in 38AD (481 years).

Stop using Jerusalem. Faithful Israel required the temple. It is wrong to not date from the temple command. Then there were the work stoppages, when the 49 year clock did not run. That is why the 7 weeks is separate from the 62 weeks. Building the temple was paramount.

It is you who are instructing God, and you are also falsifying the text.

It is YOU who is finding fault with God' word, and making up falsehoods to explain away texts.

So why did not a single NT writer refer to this 70 week prophecy? Because they recognized it as applying to the Jewish High Priesthood, not Christ.

First, Daniel was still sealed, Dan. 12:4. The Jewish High priesthood was abolished through Jesus. Now he is the High Priest of the New and Better Covenant.
Are you sure you are a Christian?

[franktalk]

TyRockwell ,

I am sure that your level of frustration in dealing with an odd interpretation of Daniel is pretty high. So between me as a futurist, you being a preterist, and the undead as a unique third view we make quite the mix of scriptural views. To me this just means that we need to study the scripture even more. Some key some day will unlock the end times prophesy. Who knows, we may experience something in the future that may shed some light on the interpretation.

[undead]

Stop using Jerusalem.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks.

7 weeks. Not 69 weeks. 7 weeks. No Temple. Just Jerusalem.

Whose falsifying the text?

[TyRockwell]

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks.

7 weeks. Not 69 weeks. 7 weeks. No Temple. Just Jerusalem.

Whose falsifying the text?

You only have to read the decree Cyrus made to understand that in God's mind, and in the mind of Daniel and all of repentant Israel, the way to restore Jerusalem starts with building the temple.

Behold Cyrus' own words concerning what God wanted him to do:

Ezra 1:2-3
"The Lord God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and He has appointed me to build a temple for Him at Jerusalem in Judah. Anyone of His people among you--may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the Lord, the God of Israel, the God Who is in Jerusalem.

Verse 4..."freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusalem."

Verse 5...prepared to go up and build the house of the Lord in Jerusalem.

Verse 7...King Cyrus brought out the articles belonging to the temple of the Lord, which Nebuchadnezzar had carried away...

If you are going to argue whether the emphasis was on the temple, or Jerusalem, you just have to read, and exercise enough reading comprehension that your agenda of disbelief in the Truth, the complete supernatural nature of the Word of God doesn't get in the way of your understanding.

The seven weeks, 49 years to build the temple, not counting the times that work was stopped on the temple. BTW, it had taken 7 years for Solomon to build the first temple.

During the sixty-two sevens, 483 years, Jerusalem was rebuilt, and the remainder of the time was to the coming of Messiah at the completion of the 69 weeks of years.

Messiah's coming began the 70th week. The siege and destruction of the temple, in 67-70 AD were the beginning of the days of vengeance that completed the 70th week, of Daniel 9:27.

[TyRockwell]

TyRockwell ,

I am sure that your level of frustration in dealing with an odd interpretation of Daniel is pretty high. So between me as a futurist, you being a preterist, and the undead as a unique third view we make quite the mix of scriptural views. To me this just means that we need to study the scripture even more. Some key some day will unlock the end times prophecy. Who knows, we may experience something in the future that may shed some light on the interpretation.

You need to get my book.

I am absolutely not a preterist, rapturist, dispensationalist, 7 year tribulationalist, or fearful Revelationist.

I am premil, victorious church, at the full measure of the stature of Christ, making all his enemies a footstool for his feet, like the Bible repeatedly says. Then Jesus will return.

If Christians want Jesus to come back in their lifetimes, they need to learn what is the eternal purpose of God. Hint: Ephesians 3:10-11

[John Goddard]

You only have to read the decree Cyrus made to understand that in God's mind, and in the mind of Daniel and all of repentant Israel, the way to restore Jerusalem starts with building the temple.

Undead dates from 588 BC exile. You date from 516 BC Cyrus's command to rebuild the Temple, until Messiah, correct?

588 BC - 483 years = 105 BC.
516 BC - 483 years = 33 BC.

I date from around 450 BC and Nehemiah/Artaxerxes I command to rebuild Jerusalem exactly as Daniel says, 7 weeks to around 400 BC Ezra/Artaxerxes II rebuilding the people, 62 weeks to around 30s AD Messiah.

450 BC - 483 = 33 AD.

What is it about my dating that other Christians object to, when it brings you straight to the days of Jesus?

[franktalk]

TyRockwell ,

I would love to read your book. I had to call you somethng and I thought preterist was closest. However after seeing all of the comments on this site from preterist they don't seem to agree on much. I am having a hard time seeing just how they come to their views about Daniel and Revelation. But I am just starting so I have a lot more to look at.