Baha'is Bab and Baha'u'llah are in the Qu'ran?

[shunyadragon]

Just as there is no Mention of Mohammad in the Bible.

Nor is their any mention of Jesus of Nazareth in the Old Testament.

[Bowman]

Just as there is no Mention of Mohammad in the Bible.

False.

'Muhammad' literally means 'Praised One'....which is what Jesus Christ is called in the Holy Bible.

[Mikhail]

Jesus is so much more than one who was and who is Praised.

Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. [YHWH]

[smaneck]

False.

'Muhammad' literally means 'Praised One'....which is what Jesus Christ is called in the Holy Bible.

<sigh> Here we go again.

Jesus is not Muhammad.

[Dan Zebiri]

Yes, muhamad is definitely not even remotely like Jesus Christ. As Mikhail said, Jesus is 'the Messiah, Christ the Lord'.

And He obviously never foretold the coming of muhamad, and all his apostles, from Peter, James and John onwards never needed to wait 570 years to experience the fulfillment of the Holy Spirit's coming among them like Christ had instructed.

Muslims needed Jesus to foretell muhamads coming to endorse his credibility among the unbelieving Christians and other non-muslims.


QUOTE=smaneck;3301740]<sigh> Here we go again.

Jesus is not Muhammad.[/QUOTE]

[smaneck]

And He obviously never foretold the coming of muhamad, and all his apostles, from Peter, James and John onwards never needed to wait 570 years to experience the fulfillment of the Holy Spirit's coming among them like Christ had instructed.

One does not have to name Muhammad by name to foretell His coming. He is Revelation.

Muslims needed Jesus to foretell muhamads coming to endorse his credibility among the unbelieving Christians and other non-muslims.

LOL, as if other non-Muslims even care.

But it is as the Qur'an says:

Moreover, Joseph had come to you before with clear tokens, but ye ceased not to doubt of the message with which he came to you, until when he
died, ye said, 'God will by no means raise up an apostle after him.'" Thus God misleadeth him who is the transgressor, the doubter.

(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 40 - The Believer)

[Dan Zebiri]

Thats why I said that orthodox muslims will never agree with your ideas -Bahai as they are.

muhammad is 'revelation' ? -this is heresy in islam. The quran never states that muhammad is God's wahy or revelation. it does state that muahamamad 'is only a messenger', nothing more - certainly he's *not* the message found in the wahy'.

And I never said that muhammad was 'prophesied by name' in the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Thats just your misguided claim again.

Sura 61/6 makes the fantastic and ludicrous claim that Jesus announced 'good news of the coming after him of someone called "ahmad"', muslims think this refers to muahammad, prophet of islam.

But in reality - the true good News - the Evangelion, has nothing to do with muhd at all, but this Gospel is all about Jesus Christ. He never refered to nor pointed to muhamad & certainly Jesus NEVER foretold muhd's coming, 570 years later.

One does not have to name Muhammad by name to foretell His coming. He is Revelation.



LOL, as if other non-Muslims even care.

But it is as the Qur'an says:

Moreover, Joseph had come to you before with clear tokens, but ye ceased not to doubt of the message with which he came to you, until when he
died, ye said, 'God will by no means raise up an apostle after him.'" Thus God misleadeth him who is the transgressor, the doubter.

(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 40 - The Believer)

[smaneck]

Thats why I said that orthodox muslims will never agree with your ideas -Bahai as they are.

muhammad is [I]'revelation' ?

That's not what I meant. I meant the Book of Revelation refers to Muhammad, though not by name.

Sura 61/6 makes the fantastic and ludicrous claim that Jesus announced 'good news of the coming after him of someone called "ahmad"', muslims think this refers to muahammad, prophet of islam.

But in reality - the true good News - the Evangelion, has nothing to do with muhd at all, but this Gospel is all about Jesus Christ. He never refered to nor pointed to muhamad & certainly Jesus NEVER foretold muhd's coming, 570 years later.

You don't know whether He did or didn't. Not every thing Jesus said is recorded in the gospels.

[Dan Zebiri]

My foot it does. The Book of Revelation in the New Testament says absolutely *NOTHING* about the false prophet muhamad, the founder of islam, If it did, it in all probability is about his false prophethood and nothing else.

Desperation puts all sorts of ludicrous ideas in your head, sometimes also known as: 'Grasping at straws'. Which is what you just did with this claim!

Muhamad makes Jesus say a number of things to serve muhamad's muslim agenda. But they are all revisionist and after-the-fact falsehoods, nothing else.

[smaneck]

My foot it does. The Book of Revelation in the New Testament says absolutely *NOTHING* about the false prophet muhamad, the founder of islam, If it did, it in all probability is about his false prophethood and nothing else.

Only if you consider the Two Witnesses mentioned in Revelation to be false prophets:

In the beginning of the eleventh chapter of the Revelation of St. John it is said:

"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

This reed is a Perfect Man Who is likened to a reed, and the manner of its likeness is this: when the interior of a reed is empty and free from all matter, it will produce beautiful melodies; and as the sound and melodies do not come from the reed, but from the flute player who blows upon it, so the sanctified heart of that blessed Being is free and emptied from all save God, pure and exempt from the attachments of all human conditions, and is the companion of the Divine Spirit. Whatever He utters is not from Himself, but from the real flute player, and it is a divine inspiration. That is why He is likened to a reed; and that reed is like a rod -- that is to say, it is the helper of every impotent one, and the support of human beings. It is the rod of the Divine Shepherd by which He guards His flock and leads them about the pastures of the Kingdom.

Then it is said: "The angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that 46 worship therein" -- that is to say, compare and measure: measuring is the discovery of proportion. Thus the angel said: compare the temple of God and the altar and them that are praying therein -- that is to say, investigate what is their true condition and discover in what degree and state they are, and what conditions, perfections, behavior and attributes they possess; and make yourself cognizant of the mysteries of those holy souls who dwell in the Holy of Holies in purity and sanctity.

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles."

In the beginning of the seventh century after Christ, when Jerusalem was conquered, the Holy of Holies was outwardly preserved -- that is to say, the house which Solomon built; but outside the Holy of Holies the outer court was taken and given to the Gentiles. "And the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months" -- that is to say, the Gentiles shall govern and control Jerusalem forty and two months, signifying twelve hundred and sixty days; and as each day signifies a year, by this reckoning it becomes twelve hundred and sixty years, which is the duration of the cycle of the Qur'án. For in the texts of the Holy Book, each day is a year; as it is said in the fourth chapter of Ezekiel, verse 6: "Thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year."

This prophesies the duration of the Dispensation of Islam when Jerusalem was trodden under foot, which means that it lost its glory -- but the Holy of Holies was preserved, guarded and respected -- until the year 1260. This twelve hundred and sixty years is a prophecy of the manifestation of the Báb, the "Gate" of Bahá'u'lláh, which took place in the year 1260 of the Hejira of Muhammad, and as the period of twelve hundred and sixty years has expired, Jerusalem, the Holy City, is now beginning to become prosperous, populous and flourishing. Anyone 47 who saw Jerusalem sixty years ago, and who sees it now, will recognize how populous and flourishing it has become, and how it is again honored.

This is the outward meaning of these verses of the Revelation of St. John; but they have another explanation and a symbolic sense, which is as follows: the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God -- that is to say, the human virtues -- disappears, and only the form subsists.

Thus among the Jews, at the end of the cycle of Moses, which coincides with the Christian manifestation, the Law of God disappeared, only a form without spirit remaining. The Holy of Holies departed from among them, but the outer court of Jerusalem -- which is the expression used for the form of the religion -- fell into the hands of the Gentiles. In the same way, the fundamental principles of the religion of Christ, which are the greatest virtues of humanity, have disappeared; and its form has remained in the hands of the clergy and the priests. Likewise, the foundation of the religion of Muhammad has disappeared, 48 but its form remains in the hands of the official 'ulama.

These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.

Briefly, what is meant by the term Holy of Holies is that spiritual Law which will never be modified, altered or abrogated; and the Holy City means the material Law which may be abrogated; and this material Law, which is described as the Holy City, was to be trodden under foot for twelve hundred and sixty years.

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three-score days, clothed in sackcloth."[1] These two witnesses are Muhammad the Messenger of God, and Ali, son of Abu Talib.
[1 Rev. 11:3.]

In the Qur'án it is said that God addressed Muhammad, the Messenger of God, saying: "We made You a Witness, a Herald of good news, and a Warner" -- that is to say, We have established Thee as the witness, the giver of good tidings, and as One bringing the wrath of God.[1] The meaning of "a witness" is one by whose testimony things may be verified. The commands of these two witnesses were to be performed for twelve hundred and sixty days, each day signifying a year. Now, Muhammad was the 49 root, and Ali the branch, like Moses and Joshua. It is said they "are clothed in sackcloth," meaning that they, apparently, were to be clothed in old raiment, not in new raiment; in other words, in the beginning they would possess no splendor in the eyes of the people, nor would their Cause appear new; for Muhammad's spiritual Law corresponds to that of Christ in the Gospel, and most of His laws relating to material things correspond to those of the Pentateuch. This is the meaning of the old raiment.
[1 This sentence is the Persian translation of the Arabic text of the Qur'án which has been quoted.

Then it is said: "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."[1] These two souls are likened to olive trees because at that time all lamps were lighted by olive oil. The meaning is two persons from whom that spirit of the wisdom of God, which is the cause of the illumination of the world, appears. These lights of God were to radiate and shine; therefore, they are likened to two candlesticks: the candlestick is the abode of the light, and from it the light shines forth. In the same way the light of guidance would shine and radiate from these illumined souls.
[1 Rev. 11:4.]

Then it is said: "They are standing before God," meaning that they are standing in the service of God, and educating the creatures of God, such as the barbarous nomad Arab tribes of the Arabian peninsula, whom they educated in such a way that in those days they reached the highest degree of civilization, and their fame and renown became worldwide.

"And if any man would hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies."[1]That is to say, that no one would be able to withstand them, that if a person wished to belittle their teachings and their law, he would be surrounded and exterminated by this same law which proceedeth out of their mouth; and everyone who attempted to injure, to antagonize and to hate them would 50 be destroyed by a command which would come out of their mouth. And thus it happened: all their enemies were vanquished, put to flight and annihilated. In this most evident way God assisted them.
[1 Cf. Rev. 11:5.]

Afterward it is said: "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy,"[1] meaning that in that cycle they would be like kings. The law and teachings of Muhammad, and the explanations and commentaries of Ali, are a heavenly bounty; if they wish to give this bounty, they have power to do so. If they do not wish it, the rain will not fall: in this connection rain stands for bounty.
[1 Rev. 11:6.]

Then it is said: "They have power over water to turn it to blood,"[1] meaning that the prophethood of Muhammad was the same as that of Moses, and that the power of Ali was the same as that of Joshua: if they wished, they could turn the water of the Nile into blood, so far as the Egyptians and those who denied them were concerned -- that is to say, that that which was the cause of their life, through their ignorance and pride, became the cause of their death. So the kingdom, wealth and power of Pharaoh and his people, which were the causes of the life of the nation, became, through their opposition, denial and pride, the cause of death, destruction, dispersion, degradation and poverty. Hence these two witnesses have power to destroy the nations.
[1 Cf. Rev. 11:6.]

Then it is said: "And smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will,"[1] meaning that they also would have the power and the material force necessary to educate the wicked and those who are oppressors and tyrants, for to these two witnesses God granted both outward and inward power, that they might educate and correct the ferocious, bloodthirsty, tyrannical nomad Arabs, who were like beasts of prey.
[1 Cf. Rev. 11:6.] 51

"And when they shall have finished their testimony"[1] means when they should have performed that which they are commanded, and should have delivered the divine message, promoting the Law of God and propagating the heavenly teachings, to the intent that the signs of spiritual life might be manifest in souls, and the light of the virtues of the world of humanity might shine forth, until complete development should be brought about among the nomad tribes.
[1 Rev. 11:7.]

"The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them": [1] this beast means the Umayyads who attacked them from the pit of error, and who rose against the religion of Muhammad and against the reality of Ali -- in other words, the love of God.
[1 Cf. Rev. 11:7.]

It is said, "The beast made war against these two witnesses"[1] -- that is to say, a spiritual war, meaning that the beast would act in entire opposition to the teachings, customs and institutions of these two witnesses, to such an extent that the virtues and perfections which were diffused by the power of those two witnesses among the peoples and tribes would be entirely dispelled, and the animal nature and carnal desires would conquer. Therefore, this beast making war against them would gain the victory -- meaning that the darkness of error coming from this beast was to have ascendency over the horizons of the world, and kill those two witnesses -- in other words, that it would destroy the spiritual life which they spread abroad in the midst of the nation, and entirely remove the divine laws and teachings, treading under foot the Religion of God. Nothing would thereafter remain but a lifeless body without spirit.
[1 Cf. Rev. 11:7.

"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where 52 also our Lord was crucified."[1] "Their bodies" means the Religion of God, and "the street" means in public view. The meaning of "Sodom and Egypt," the place "where also our Lord was crucified," is this region of Syria, and especially Jerusalem, where the Umayyads then had their dominions; and it was here that the Religion of God and the divine teachings first disappeared, and a body without spirit remained. "Their bodies" represents the Religion of God, which remained like a dead body without spirit.
[1 Rev. 11:8.]

"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."[1]
[1 Rev. 11:9.]

As it was before explained, in the terminology of the Holy Books three days and a half signify three years and a half, and three years and a half are forty and two months, and forty and two months twelve hundred and sixty days; and as each day by the text of the Holy Book signifies one year, the meaning is that for twelve hundred and sixty years, which is the cycle of the Qur'án, the nations, tribes and peoples would look at their bodies -- that is to say, that they would make a spectacle of the Religion of God: though they would not act in accordance with it, still, they would not suffer their bodies -- meaning the Religion of God -- to be put in the grave. That is to say, that in appearance they would cling to the Religion of God and not allow it to completely disappear from their midst, nor the body of it to be entirely destroyed and annihilated. Nay, in reality they would leave it, while outwardly preserving its name and remembrance.

Those "kindreds, people and nations" signify those who are gathered under the shadow of the Qur'án, not permitting the Cause and Law of God to be, in outward appearance, entirely destroyed and annihilated -- for 53 there are prayer and fasting among them -- but the fundamental principles of the Religion of God, which are morals and conduct, with the knowledge of divine mysteries, have disappeared; the light of the virtues of the world of humanity, which is the result of the love and knowledge of God, is extinguished; and the darkness of tyranny, oppression, satanic passions and desires has become victorious. The body of the Law of God, like a corpse, has been exposed to public view for twelve hundred and sixty days, each day being counted as a year, and this period is the cycle of Muhammad.

The people forfeited all that these two persons had established, which was the foundation of the Law of God, and destroyed the virtues of the world of humanity, which are the divine gifts and the spirit of this religion, to such a degree that truthfulness, justice, love, union, purity, sanctity, detachment and all the divine qualities departed from among them. In the religion only prayers and fasting persisted; this condition lasted for twelve hundred and sixty years, which is the duration of the cycle of the Furqan.[1] It was as if these two persons were dead, and their bodies were remaining without spirit.
[1 Another name for the Qur'án, signifying the Distinction.]

"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."[1] "Those who dwelt upon the earth" means the other nations and races, such as the peoples of Europe and distant Asia, who, when they saw that the character of Islam was entirely changed, the Law of God forsaken -- that virtues, zeal and honor had departed from among them, and that their qualities were changed -- became happy, and rejoiced that corruption of morals had infected the people of Islam, and that they would in consequence 54 be overcome by other nations. So this thing has come to pass. Witness this people which had attained the summit of power, how degraded and downtrodden it is now.
[1 Cf. Rev. 11:10.]

The other nations "shall send gifts to one another," meaning that they should help each other, for "these two prophets tormented them that dwelt upon the earth" -- that is, they overcame the other nations and peoples of the world and conquered them.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 44)

[Dan Zebiri]

Totally ludicrous and unsupported by the real teachings of Jesus Christ Himself. The Book of Revelation never refers to nor points to bahaullah/the bab or anyone like that!

Thats why I said, your views are not only rejected by Muslims (as a subscriber to islamic heresy), they are also flatly rejected AND Denounced by Christians - as a propogater of grossly twisted misrepresentations of the Bible as well..!

I rest my case..! This is a thread on Islam and not Bahaism..

[smaneck]

Thats why I said, your views are not only rejected by Muslims (as a subscriber to islamic heresy), they are also flatly rejected AND Denounced by Christians - as a propogater of grossly twisted misrepresentations of the Bible as well..!

Gee, just like the Jews rejected Christ.

Imagine that.

[Dan Zebiri]

Your wild imagination has betrayed you fully then. Evidently, you suffer bad selective amnesia - the first twelve disciples of Christ Jesus ALL were Jewish men, as were all seventy of His outer circle, plus the five hundred followers gathered around Him at the peak of His ministry!

And today, the movement Jews for Jesus demonstrate increasing numbers of Jews now embrace Y'shua (Jesus) as their Mashiach - Messiah; as seen here:

Jewsforjesus.org

Just as Muslims too are boldly coming 'out of the closets' increasingly, to declare their abandoning islam for the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, *IN SPITE of fierce opposition, persecution* and even torture they face for doing so, as enjoined by Islam!

muslims4jesus.org




[


QUOTE=smaneck;3309717]Gee, just like the Jews rejected Christ.

Imagine that.[/QUOTE]

[smaneck]

Your wild imagination has betrayed you fully then. Evidently, you suffer bad selective amnesia - the first twelve disciples of Christ Jesus ALL were Jewish men, as were all seventy of His outer circle, plus the five hundred followers gathered around Him at the peak of His ministry!

And this makes it different from the Baha'i Faith how? All the early Baha'is were Muslims as well. Most of the early Babis were from among the 'ulama.

And today, the movement Jews for Jesus demonstrate increasing numbers of Jews now embrace Y'shua (Jesus) as their Mashiach - Messiah; as seen here:

Jewsforjesus.org

The moment a Jew accepts Jesus they are no longer considered Jews by the Jewish community, whatever they may call themselves.

[Dan Zebiri]

How Untrue again.., a Jew is a Jew ethnically, racially and genetically - such Jewishness is never erased or extinguished just due to a change in their belief system.

Unless you can conclusively identify for me / us a DNA or gene in their ethnic makeup that determines the religious identity of the Jews, what you have just said is the same as believing in the cow jumping over the Moon - ie.simply ludicrous!