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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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  • Saved

    The idea of being saved is being saved from being lost - eternal demise - eternal death.
    [Being saved from sin.]

    1) Generally, most everyone does not know when they will die.

    For the materialist our physical death is the final end of consusousness.

    As a Christian I believe I know I will be with God and Christ our Lord (2 Corinthians 5;8).

    Now there is this issue of knowing one is saved [possessing eternal life, 1 John 5:12-13].

    So if anyone professes to know they are saved (Ephesians 2;8-9) they are effectively claiming: "once saved always saved."

    Otherwise no one can yet know they are saved. No one.

    2) So really, Christians who deny the concept of OSAS are effectively denying any one is as yet saved.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

  • #2
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    The idea of being saved is being saved from being lost - eternal demise - eternal death.
    [Being saved from sin.]

    1) Generally, most everyone does not know when they will die.

    For the materialist our physical death is the final end of consusousness.

    As a Christian I believe I know I will be with God and Christ our Lord (2 Corinthians 5;8).

    Now there is this issue of knowing one is saved [possessing eternal life, 1 John 5:12-13].

    So if anyone professes to know they are saved (Ephesians 2;8-9) they are effectively claiming: "once saved always saved."

    Otherwise no one can yet know they are saved. No one.

    2) So really, Christians who deny the concept of OSAS are effectively denying any one is as yet saved.
    No, we are saying that we are saved -- in possession of eternal life -- by grace through faith, and we continue to be so until and unless we choose to abandon that faith, in which case we give up that eternal life.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
      No, we are saying that we are saved -- in possession of eternal life -- by grace through faith, and we continue to be so until and unless we choose to abandon that faith, in which case we give up that eternal life.
      Thank you for your comment.

      So am I to understand that you believe people are saved by human will? (versus John 1:13) Please explain your thinking on this. Thanks.

      Please, also, how do you understand the following verse?
      Scripture Verse: John 6:39, NIV

      . . . And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. . . .

      © Copyright Original Source

      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        @NorrinRadd

        Your 'explanation' doesn't really defeat 37818's logic. If you were to "give up" eternal life (which I maintain is a stupid concept) then you were never really "saved" from anything in the first place. It doesn't matter whether you give it up, whether it's stolen from you, or whatever. The point is that salvation refers to a future event, but it's nonetheless expressed in the present.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          Thank you for your comment.

          So am I to understand that you believe people are saved by human will? (versus John 1:13) Please explain your thinking on this. Thanks.
          I do not share your understanding of John 1:13, in large part because of the wording of John 1:12. The wording of the latter in most English translations suggests that becoming children of God *follows* "receiving" and "believing." In that context, I see 13 as saying that our parentage is not human but Divine. So the point is that it is not a mortal human saying, "I choose to father children," it is God. From that perspective, the will of the person being "fathered" is not even mentioned in this verse. In a physical birth, the person being "fathered" is entirely passive, and obviously has no volitional input. But this is a spiritual birth, and v. 12 indicates that the birth doesn't happen unless the person to be fathered "receives" and "believes," both of which seem to me to be volitional. So while I would not say we are saved "by" human will, I would say we are not saved *apart from* it, in the sense that we are saved / born again when we willingly receive and believe.

          Please, also, how do you understand the following verse?
          Scripture Verse: John 6:39, NIV

          . . . And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. . . .

          © Copyright Original Source

          On its own, that does sound like the Father unilaterally guaranteeing that anyone who "gets saved" will "stay saved." The background context of the passage is Passover (explicitly in 6:4, and implicitly, with early allusion to the Last Supper, in 6:53-56). As such, it has "Covenant" and "Covenant meal" implications, in addition to all the allusions to manna and Moses. So I find it quite possible that the "promise" only applies to those who continue to "believe" (v. 40), as opposed to choosing to stop "believing" and thus abandon the Covenant. On the whole, I don't find the passage to clearly support one view or the other.

          This aspect of the passage would probably be less problematic if we shared the Jewish mindset of the original audience, since I am given to understand that the Jews saw no conflict between divine sovereignty and human free will.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
            @NorrinRadd

            Your 'explanation' doesn't really defeat 37818's logic. If you were to "give up" eternal life (which I maintain is a stupid concept) then you were never really "saved" from anything in the first place. It doesn't matter whether you give it up, whether it's stolen from you, or whatever. The point is that salvation refers to a future event, but it's nonetheless expressed in the present.
            Given your understanding of "salvation," it may be that we don't share enough preconceptions in common to have meaningful dialogue.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Federalist.

            Nationalist Christian.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

            Justice for Matthew Perna!

            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
              I do not share your understanding of John 1:13, in large part because of the wording of John 1:12. The wording of the latter in most English translations suggests that becoming children of God *follows* "receiving" and "believing." In that context, I see 13 as saying that our parentage is not human but Divine. So the point is that it is not a mortal human saying, "I choose to father children," it is God. From that perspective, the will of the person being "fathered" is not even mentioned in this verse. In a physical birth, the person being "fathered" is entirely passive, and obviously has no volitional input. But this is a spiritual birth, and v. 12 indicates that the birth doesn't happen unless the person to be fathered "receives" and "believes," both of which seem to me to be volitional. So while I would not say we are saved "by" human will, I would say we are not saved *apart from* it, in the sense that we are saved / born again when we willingly receive and believe.
              It would seem we do not completly agree on the meaning of John 1:12-13. It would seem we agree that the act of faith precedes being born of God. My point is the being born of God is caused by God not our act of choosing faith.


              On its own, that does sound like the Father unilaterally guaranteeing that anyone who "gets saved" will "stay saved."
              My understanding if any were lost whom the Father gave to the Son, then it would be a failure to the Son.
              The background context of the passage is Passover (explicitly in 6:4, and implicitly, with early allusion to the Last Supper, in 6:53-56).
              I must disagree here. The back ground follows the manna from heaven v.31 issue. And 6:53-56 is refering back to that vs.35, 47, 58. Furthermore Jesus explained that it is metaphor v.63. As for the Lord's Supper if anything of that, it is metaphor which refers to that metaphor. But it is really metaphor, a remembrance (1 Corinthians 11:25-26) of Chirst's death on the cross for our sins.
              As such, it has "Covenant" and "Covenant meal" implications, in addition to all the allusions to manna and Moses. So I find it quite possible that the "promise" only applies to those who continue to "believe" (v. 40), as opposed to choosing to stop "believing" and thus abandon the Covenant. On the whole, I don't find the passage to clearly support one view or the other.
              Then you must view Christ as a failure to the Father's expressed will v.39.


              This aspect of the passage would probably be less problematic if we shared the Jewish mindset of the original audience, since I am given to understand that the Jews saw no conflict between divine sovereignty and human free will.
              Please explain how you see it is different in this. Since I personally see no conflict between God's sovereignty and man being self willed, which we are calling "free will." [Man's will against God's will. Romans 3:11.]
              Last edited by 37818; 08-01-2016, 08:35 AM.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #8
                norrin, he is saying this.

                Assume that in 10 years you will abandon your faith. You know nothing of this now of course. So right now you are claiming that you are saved and you believe it. But you are WRONG. Because in 10 years you will abandon your faith and you will end up in hell. So despite THINKING you are saved right now, you are actually damned.

                get it?

                The only way you can actually be saved right now, and be sure, is if you can't abandon your faith, that once saved always saved. Then you can declare you HAVE eternal life, not that you think you MIGHT have eternal life, as long as nothing goes wrong between now and your death.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  norrin, he is saying this.

                  Assume that in 10 years you will abandon your faith. You know nothing of this now of course. So right now you are claiming that you are saved and you believe it. But you are WRONG. Because in 10 years you will abandon your faith and you will end up in hell. So despite THINKING you are saved right now, you are actually damned.

                  get it?

                  The only way you can actually be saved right now, and be sure, is if you can't abandon your faith, that once saved always saved. Then you can declare you HAVE eternal life, not that you think you MIGHT have eternal life, as long as nothing goes wrong between now and your death.
                  No one who professes to be saved right now is in heaven right now. That will not happen unless they are "saved" when they die. A person who dies and goes to hell is effectively lost. BTW not all the religous thinking they are saved go to hell/Sheol/Hades upon death (Matthew 7;21). Or they would know better (Matthew 7:22-23; Revelation 20:13).

                  There is a difference between thinking one knows and knowing. So in order for one to choose not to believe - that one could not have really known. That view point of saved becoming lost makes no sense to me. It would be helpful to understand the reasons one feels the need to believe one can choose not to believe a truth once held to be true.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    No one who professes to be saved right now is in heaven right now. That will not happen unless they are "saved" when they die. A person who dies and goes to hell is effectively lost. BTW not all the religous thinking they are saved go to hell/Sheol/Hades upon death (Matthew 7;21). Or they would know better (Matthew 7:22-23; Revelation 20:13).

                    There is a difference between thinking one knows and knowing. So in order for one to choose not to believe - that one could not have really known. That view point of saved becoming lost makes no sense to me. It would be helpful to understand the reasons one feels the need to believe one can choose not to believe a truth once held to be true.
                    there are many things that I used to believe that I don't any longer, because I was given evidence that I believed wrongly.

                    Example 1: I used to believe that there was no God, then I believed that there could be a God but hey, I was a good guy so I was going to heaven just like everyone else except evil criminals. I was shown I was wrong.

                    Example 2: Once I believed that oxygen was flammable (many people believe this). Then a welder showed me that no, oxygen will not burn on it's own. It is what makes other things burn but it doesn't actually burn itself. Burning is actually oxydizing something very rapidly.

                    So I can see why someone could one day not believe in God or Jesus, if they were given the right evidence that internally convinced them that it was not true, or sometimes a great tragedy will strike and they abandon their faith, etc.

                    Or they have a weak faith, and it is driven away as soon as a bit of hardship comes along.

                    But I think if someone has a genuine faith, even if they one day abandon their belief because of tragedy or being misguided, that they are still saved. The trick is how can we know if they had a true faith? Or even of those of us who claim we are saved, how can others now if our faith is genuine? I think WE know in our own hearts, but we have no real idea about others. Only God knows for sure.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      there are many things that I used to believe that I don't any longer, because I was given evidence that I believed wrongly.

                      Example 1: I used to believe that there was no God, then I believed that there could be a God but hey, I was a good guy so I was going to heaven just like everyone else except evil criminals. I was shown I was wrong.

                      Example 2: Once I believed that oxygen was flammable (many people believe this). Then a welder showed me that no, oxygen will not burn on it's own. It is what makes other things burn but it doesn't actually burn itself. Burning is actually oxydizing something very rapidly.

                      So I can see why someone could one day not believe in God or Jesus, if they were given the right evidence that internally convinced them that it was not true, or sometimes a great tragedy will strike and they abandon their faith, etc.
                      Yes. No one should believe things that are not understood to be true.

                      Or they have a weak faith, and it is driven away as soon as a bit of hardship comes along.
                      There is the stony ground in the parable of the sower.

                      But I think if someone has a genuine faith, even if they one day abandon their belief because of tragedy or being misguided, that they are still saved. The trick is how can we know if they had a true faith? Or even of those of us who claim we are saved, how can others now if our faith is genuine? I think WE know in our own hearts, but we have no real idea about others. Only God knows for sure.
                      Technically we cannot really know the salvation of others - except by what we perceive as a reasonable profession. As for genuine faith, it is God who by His word [His truth] gives us our *faith. And it is God who does the saving and God who does the keeping**.

                      [*John 6:29; John 17:17; Romans 10:17; James 1:18 . . . .]
                      [** John 10:27-29]
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        The idea of being saved is being saved from being lost - eternal demise - eternal death.
                        [Being saved from sin.]

                        1) Generally, most everyone does not know when they will die.

                        For the materialist our physical death is the final end of consusousness.

                        As a Christian I believe I know I will be with God and Christ our Lord (2 Corinthians 5;8).

                        Now there is this issue of knowing one is saved [possessing eternal life, 1 John 5:12-13].

                        So if anyone professes to know they are saved (Ephesians 2;8-9) they are effectively claiming: "once saved always saved."

                        Otherwise no one can yet know they are saved. No one.

                        2) So really, Christians who deny the concept of OSAS are effectively denying any one is as yet saved.
                        God is not a kidnapper that will hold us against our own will, that is not Godly type Love?



                        The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

                        Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone stile it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.

                        The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

                        We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.


                        Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

                        Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

                        Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          norrin, he is saying this.

                          Assume that in 10 years you will abandon your faith. You know nothing of this now of course. So right now you are claiming that you are saved and you believe it. But you are WRONG. Because in 10 years you will abandon your faith and you will end up in hell. So despite THINKING you are saved right now, you are actually damned.

                          get it?
                          Yes, but that is true regardless of what one believes about OSAS.


                          The only way you can actually be saved right now, and be sure, is if you can't abandon your faith, that once saved always saved. Then you can declare you HAVE eternal life, not that you think you MIGHT have eternal life, as long as nothing goes wrong between now and your death.
                          No. I am saved and have eternal life until and unless I abandon the Covenant.

                          Again, it is possible you and I have such divergent worldviews, and such widely differing understanding of the meanings of basic terminology, that meaningful discussion is almost impossible.
                          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                          Beige Federalist.

                          Nationalist Christian.

                          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                          Justice for Matthew Perna!

                          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bling
                            The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
                            Why in the world would you take some vague, symbolic passage like that, and then base your doctrine of soteriology on it? That is foolishness.

                            We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.
                            You can use whatever fancy language or euphemisms you dream up. It doesn't defeat the logic of 37818's opening post, which you completely failed to address.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                              Yes, but that is true regardless of what one believes about OSAS.




                              No. I am saved and have eternal life until and unless I abandon the Covenant.

                              Again, it is possible you and I have such divergent worldviews, and such widely differing understanding of the meanings of basic terminology, that meaningful discussion is almost impossible.
                              If you are going to give up your faith one day, then you only think you are saved now, unless OSAS is true. You can claim you are saved now all you want, but you aren't if you will abandon your faith later. Because you aren't ACTUALLY saved until you die. You are only "potentially saved" at the present.

                              But under OSAS, you ARE saved right now and HAVE eternal life. Not "might get eternal life" but actually HAVE it, because you can never lose your salvation.

                              1 John 5:13
                              I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

                              Comment

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