Saved

[37818]

Yes, but that is true regardless of what one believes about OSAS.




No. I am saved and have eternal life until and unless I abandon the Covenant.

Again, it is possible you and I have such divergent worldviews, and such widely differing understanding of the meanings of basic terminology, that meaningful discussion is almost impossible.

If you were to explain to someone how to be saved and know it what would you explain?

[37818]

God is not a kidnapper that will hold us against our own will, that is not Godly type Love?



The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone stile it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.

The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.


Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

Which raises the question, if you were to explain to someone how to obtain the gift of eternal life and know it, what woud you explain?

[bling]

Why in the world would you take some vague, symbolic passage like that, and then base your doctrine of soteriology on it? That is foolishness.



You can use whatever fancy language or euphemisms you dream up. It doesn't defeat the logic of 37818's opening post, which you completely failed to address.

I am taking the teaching given by the Holy Spirit to the Hebrew writer, so is that foolishness?

If, back in the first century you were an oldest son Jew, would you have the rights of the oldest son? Yes

Does that mean you cannot sell or give these rights away? No

As a Child of God you have the rights of God’s children which include eternal life, so does that mean you cannot give that right away?

The Hebrew writer is writing to Christians specifically telling them not to sell or give up “something” like Esau did with his birthright. A birthright is something that cannot be taken away by anyone including the father and it just cannot be lost, but can be sold or given away by the owner, so what is the Hebrew writer alluding to with the birthright analogy?

You specifically did not address the other scripture I used Gal. 6: 9, so you have no answer for it?

As a Child of God I know I have eternal life, but if I want to give up my being a child of God and go back to being a child of satan (I have the free will ability to do that), it is my choice.

[bling]

Which raises the question, if you were to explain to someone how to obtain the gift of eternal life and know it, what woud you explain?

First, I need to start a person from where they are right then. Love them, help them, befriend them, listen to them, study with them and live life with them. I need to allow Christ, which dwells within me, to teach them. Hopefully they will want to be Loved in spite of what they have done, will do and who they are and want such Love to be in themselves.

Accepting God’s Love in the form of forgiveness automatically provides this unbelievable huge Love: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”. That Love is God Himself since “God is Love” and they can experience that love. They can experience the indwelling Holy Spirit as their guarantee God will fulfill all His promises. As long as they do not give up, walk away, and intentionally refuse God’s Love they are a child of God, but God does not take their free will away from them, so they can chose to go back to satan. God has given us all we can have while here on earth, so you should choose to Love Him, but it is still your choice and the perceived pleasures of sin in this life have an attraction as scripture warns Christians about or do you feel the attraction has been totally removed?

[Obsidian]

You specifically did not address the other scripture I used Gal. 6: 9, so you have no answer for it?

As a Child of God I know I have eternal life, but if I want to give up my being a child of God and go back to being a child of satan (I have the free will ability to do that), it is my choice.

You're taking passages that can mean multiple things, and you're assuming that you have read into them the correct meaning -- that salvation can be lost. But no, I'm not going to address your passages or explain to you the correct meaning of them, because you are derailing the thread. This is not a thread to debate the merits of your works-based theology. This is a thread to debate 37818's opening argument, which is that if you lost your "salvation" then it would mean that you were not actually "saved" from anything. It's a logical argument. It may be that some of the people on this forum, perhaps including you, just lack the capability to follow it.

[37818]

First, I need to start a person from where they are right then. Love them, help them, befriend them, listen to them, study with them and live life with them. I need to allow Christ, which dwells within me, to teach them. Hopefully they will want to be Loved in spite of what they have done, will do and who they are and want such Love to be in themselves.

Accepting God’s Love in the form of forgiveness automatically provides this unbelievable huge Love: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”. That Love is God Himself since “God is Love” and they can experience that love. They can experience the indwelling Holy Spirit as their guarantee God will fulfill all His promises. As long as they do not give up, walk away, and intentionally refuse God’s Love they are a child of God, but God does not take their free will away from them, so they can chose to go back to satan. God has given us all we can have while here on earth, so you should choose to Love Him, but it is still your choice and the perceived pleasures of sin in this life have an attraction as scripture warns Christians about or do you feel the attraction has been totally removed?

Ah, yeah the love from God, so where was the gospel in all of that? (John 3:16? Romans 5:8? 2 Corinthians 5:14?)

". . . But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

[KingsGambit]

Why in the world would you take some vague, symbolic passage like that, and then base your doctrine of soteriology on it? That is foolishness.

The Hebrews passage isn't vague at all. It's extremely clear, especially when taken in combination with the other warnings in Hebrews. Hebrews 10 seals the deal. It talks about not giving up the faith, and then goes on to warn that "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." (26-27). Even more, it warns against "shrinking back" (38), and in verse 39, that those who shrink back will be destroyed. This doctrine leaves no room for those who walk away from the faith still being saved in the end because of OSAS.

So how do I square this with 37818's post? Salvation has a present and future component. We enjoy the present component now but the future component has not yet been realized.

[Obsidian]

The Hebrews passage isn't vague at all. It's extremely clear, especially when taken in combination with the other warnings in Hebrews.

Actually, it's pretty vague about whether all of the "warnings" are referring to the same people.

So how do I square this with 37818's post? Salvation has a present and future component. We enjoy the present component now but the future component has not yet been realized.

What is the present thing that people are "saved" from, who still wind up in hell?

[KingsGambit]

Actually, it's pretty vague about whether all of the "warnings" are referring to the same people.

I see no reason to limit the scope of Hebrews 10 to an undefined set of people. The burden of proof is on anybody claiming it doesn't apply to all Christians. What is your argument that it doesn't?

[KingsGambit]

What is the present thing that people are "saved" from, who still wind up in hell?

Communion with God through the Holy Spirit here on earth... escaping the corruption of the world at least for a period of time (2 Peter 2:20).

[Obsidian]

I've heard conflicting arguments about how to interpret basically every single one of those Hebrews passages, arguing that they refer to Christians or Jews or whatever, so for you to claim that they are clear is a little ridiculous. I still feel like it's derailing the thread to even get off on that.

[KingsGambit]

I still feel like it's derailing the thread to even get off on that.

No it's not. I cited some passages against the OP's perspective, and you attempted to dismiss them by saying the context or connection wasn't clear. I have the right to explain why I believe the verses are applicable.

In my opinion, the Hebrews passages are clear in what they respond to. The only reason people interpret them otherwise is to preserve the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved, which is nearly impossible to reconcile with Hebrews without strongly twisting the meaning of the book. If the book is allowed to speak for itself, there is little difficulty in understanding them.

[Obsidian]

The only reason people interpret them otherwise is to preserve the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved, which is nearly impossible to reconcile with Hebrews without strongly twisting the meaning of the book.

That's not true. The reason people interpret them divergently is because the passages all use metaphorical language, and because the book is written against the Jews but also warns Christians not to join in with them. So there are two potential groups of people at issue.

I think Hebrews 10 probably refers to Christians, which is why it says, "The Lord will judge his people."

escaping the corruption of the world at least for a period of time (2 Peter 2:20).

I don't really see how "escaping from the corruption of the world" would count as being "saved" from something. You are saved from something that harms you. The corruption of the world doesn't really harm you; it's only God's punishment for the corruption that harms you.

[37818]

KingsGambit,

You have made generalities with references. But not one of them refers to a saved person. Not one.

Furthermore the eternal outcome is whether one is saved or not.

What would you explain to someone as to how to be saved and to stay saved?

[bling]

You're taking passages that can mean multiple things, and you're assuming that you have read into them the correct meaning -- that salvation can be lost. But no, I'm not going to address your passages or explain to you the correct meaning of them, because you are derailing the thread. This is not a thread to debate the merits of your works-based theology. This is a thread to debate 37818's opening argument, which is that if you lost your "salvation" then it would mean that you were not actually "saved" from anything. It's a logical argument. It may be that some of the people on this forum, perhaps including you, just lack the capability to follow it.

The OP conclusion said: “So really, Christians who deny the concept of OSAS are effectively denying any one is as yet saved.”

I am saying “salvation” is something the Christians owns at His conversion like this:

A 16 year old is given unconditionally nice sedan with the title signed over to him. It is a free gift he now personally owns and is very happy to have it. Prior to getting his license at 18 he develops new friends that get him into heavy drinking and he does not want to be the designated driver, so since the car is truly his he can sell it or give it away, but no one can take it from him. The fact it has a pure platinum engine worth 200 million dollars under the hood does not affect his decision, since he never looked under the hood.

We own our salvation like the 16 year old owned the car, so the 16 year old could say he has this car the same as we can say: “we have been saved or salvation”.

So the question is: have we taken title to our salvation, so it is truly ours or do we not really “own” our salvation or is God still in possession of it?