Originally posted by NorrinRadd
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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by bling View PostGod is not a kidnapper that will hold us against our own will, that is not Godly type Love?
The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone stile it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.
The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.
We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.
Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.
Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostWhy in the world would you take some vague, symbolic passage like that, and then base your doctrine of soteriology on it? That is foolishness.
You can use whatever fancy language or euphemisms you dream up. It doesn't defeat the logic of 37818's opening post, which you completely failed to address.
If, back in the first century you were an oldest son Jew, would you have the rights of the oldest son? Yes
Does that mean you cannot sell or give these rights away? No
As a Child of God you have the rights of God’s children which include eternal life, so does that mean you cannot give that right away?
The Hebrew writer is writing to Christians specifically telling them not to sell or give up “something” like Esau did with his birthright. A birthright is something that cannot be taken away by anyone including the father and it just cannot be lost, but can be sold or given away by the owner, so what is the Hebrew writer alluding to with the birthright analogy?
You specifically did not address the other scripture I used Gal. 6: 9, so you have no answer for it?
As a Child of God I know I have eternal life, but if I want to give up my being a child of God and go back to being a child of satan (I have the free will ability to do that), it is my choice.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostWhich raises the question, if you were to explain to someone how to obtain the gift of eternal life and know it, what woud you explain?
Accepting God’s Love in the form of forgiveness automatically provides this unbelievable huge Love: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”. That Love is God Himself since “God is Love” and they can experience that love. They can experience the indwelling Holy Spirit as their guarantee God will fulfill all His promises. As long as they do not give up, walk away, and intentionally refuse God’s Love they are a child of God, but God does not take their free will away from them, so they can chose to go back to satan. God has given us all we can have while here on earth, so you should choose to Love Him, but it is still your choice and the perceived pleasures of sin in this life have an attraction as scripture warns Christians about or do you feel the attraction has been totally removed?
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Originally posted by BlingYou specifically did not address the other scripture I used Gal. 6: 9, so you have no answer for it?
As a Child of God I know I have eternal life, but if I want to give up my being a child of God and go back to being a child of satan (I have the free will ability to do that), it is my choice.
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Originally posted by bling View PostFirst, I need to start a person from where they are right then. Love them, help them, befriend them, listen to them, study with them and live life with them. I need to allow Christ, which dwells within me, to teach them. Hopefully they will want to be Loved in spite of what they have done, will do and who they are and want such Love to be in themselves.
Accepting God’s Love in the form of forgiveness automatically provides this unbelievable huge Love: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”. That Love is God Himself since “God is Love” and they can experience that love. They can experience the indwelling Holy Spirit as their guarantee God will fulfill all His promises. As long as they do not give up, walk away, and intentionally refuse God’s Love they are a child of God, but God does not take their free will away from them, so they can chose to go back to satan. God has given us all we can have while here on earth, so you should choose to Love Him, but it is still your choice and the perceived pleasures of sin in this life have an attraction as scripture warns Christians about or do you feel the attraction has been totally removed?
". . . But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostWhy in the world would you take some vague, symbolic passage like that, and then base your doctrine of soteriology on it? That is foolishness.
So how do I square this with 37818's post? Salvation has a present and future component. We enjoy the present component now but the future component has not yet been realized."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambitThe Hebrews passage isn't vague at all. It's extremely clear, especially when taken in combination with the other warnings in Hebrews.
So how do I square this with 37818's post? Salvation has a present and future component. We enjoy the present component now but the future component has not yet been realized.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostActually, it's pretty vague about whether all of the "warnings" are referring to the same people."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostWhat is the present thing that people are "saved" from, who still wind up in hell?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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I've heard conflicting arguments about how to interpret basically every single one of those Hebrews passages, arguing that they refer to Christians or Jews or whatever, so for you to claim that they are clear is a little ridiculous. I still feel like it's derailing the thread to even get off on that.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostI still feel like it's derailing the thread to even get off on that.
In my opinion, the Hebrews passages are clear in what they respond to. The only reason people interpret them otherwise is to preserve the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved, which is nearly impossible to reconcile with Hebrews without strongly twisting the meaning of the book. If the book is allowed to speak for itself, there is little difficulty in understanding them."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambitThe only reason people interpret them otherwise is to preserve the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved, which is nearly impossible to reconcile with Hebrews without strongly twisting the meaning of the book.
I think Hebrews 10 probably refers to Christians, which is why it says, "The Lord will judge his people."
escaping the corruption of the world at least for a period of time (2 Peter 2:20).
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KingsGambit,
You have made generalities with references. But not one of them refers to a saved person. Not one.
Furthermore the eternal outcome is whether one is saved or not.
What would you explain to someone as to how to be saved and to stay saved?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostYou're taking passages that can mean multiple things, and you're assuming that you have read into them the correct meaning -- that salvation can be lost. But no, I'm not going to address your passages or explain to you the correct meaning of them, because you are derailing the thread. This is not a thread to debate the merits of your works-based theology. This is a thread to debate 37818's opening argument, which is that if you lost your "salvation" then it would mean that you were not actually "saved" from anything. It's a logical argument. It may be that some of the people on this forum, perhaps including you, just lack the capability to follow it.
I am saying “salvation” is something the Christians owns at His conversion like this:
A 16 year old is given unconditionally nice sedan with the title signed over to him. It is a free gift he now personally owns and is very happy to have it. Prior to getting his license at 18 he develops new friends that get him into heavy drinking and he does not want to be the designated driver, so since the car is truly his he can sell it or give it away, but no one can take it from him. The fact it has a pure platinum engine worth 200 million dollars under the hood does not affect his decision, since he never looked under the hood.
We own our salvation like the 16 year old owned the car, so the 16 year old could say he has this car the same as we can say: “we have been saved or salvation”.
So the question is: have we taken title to our salvation, so it is truly ours or do we not really “own” our salvation or is God still in possession of it?
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