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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by bling View Post
    The OP conclusion said: “So really, Christians who deny the concept of OSAS are effectively denying any one is as yet saved.”

    I am saying “salvation” is something the Christians owns at His conversion like this:

    A 16 year old is given unconditionally nice sedan with the title signed over to him. It is a free gift he now personally owns and is very happy to have it. Prior to getting his license at 18 he develops new friends that get him into heavy drinking and he does not want to be the designated driver, so since the car is truly his he can sell it or give it away, but no one can take it from him. The fact it has a pure platinum engine worth 200 million dollars under the hood does not affect his decision, since he never looked under the hood.

    We own our salvation like the 16 year old owned the car, so the 16 year old could say he has this car the same as we can say: “we have been saved or salvation”.

    So the question is: have we taken title to our salvation, so it is truly ours or do we not really “own” our salvation or is God still in possession of it?
    if he gives away the car or sells it before actually receiving it, then he never actually had the car in the first place, just the promise that if he didn't sell it he would get it one day. So in fact he never actually had the car did he?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Ah, yeah the love from God, so where was the gospel in all of that? (John 3:16? Romans 5:8? 2 Corinthians 5:14?)

      ". . . But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.
      Like Phillip did with the Ethiopian eunuch you start where he is at, which the eunuch was way further ahead of than most nonbelievers. Christ Crucified is definitely in there. Peter gives us the good news message to a large group of Jews that were prepped over the last 49 days Acts 2, but that does not work for most today.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        if he gives away the car or sells it before actually receiving it, then he never actually had the car in the first place, just the promise that if he didn't sell it he would get it one day. So in fact he never actually had the car did he?
        He got it and it sat in the drive way.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by bling View Post
          He got it and it sat in the drive way.
          then the analogy doesn't work, because you haven't been through the judgment and resurrection yet, so haven't been actually saved yet, have you. If you make it a birthday card that says, "upon turning 18 you will get a car" and he tears up the card, then he would never get the car, THAT would be analogous to being able to give away your salvation. We are saying that the car is his, whether he tears up the card or keeps it.

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          • #35
            KingsGambit is the only one who has actually tried to address the dilemma. He says that we are presently saved from our own sinfulness. However, when the Bible talks about being saved it is talking about being saved from God's wrath, not from a sad lifestyle or whatever.

            Romans 5:9
            Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


            I do agree that God's wrath is revealed even in the present. So the works-salvationists could potentially say that we are saved from God's present wrath but not his future wrath, I guess. But that just sounds kind of lame.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by bling View Post
              Like Phillip did with the Ethiopian eunuch you start where he is at, which the eunuch was way further ahead of than most nonbelievers. Christ Crucified is definitely in there. Peter gives us the good news message to a large group of Jews that were prepped over the last 49 days Acts 2, but that does not work for most today.
              This brings me back to what I had asked:
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              . . . the question, if you were to explain to someone how to obtain the gift of eternal life and know it, what would you explain?
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                then the analogy doesn't work, because you haven't been through the judgment and resurrection yet, so haven't been actually saved yet, have you. If you make it a birthday card that says, "upon turning 18 you will get a car" and he tears up the card, then he would never get the car, THAT would be analogous to being able to give away your salvation. We are saying that the car is his, whether he tears up the card or keeps it.
                You have eternal life in heaven now, but how do you use it now?

                I am just addressing the one part of "salvation" that has to do with eternal life in heaven and using the car analogy to try and explain my understanding.

                You can have your own analogies to explain your understanding.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  This brings me back to what I had asked:
                  Eternal life comes with their conversion and I allow Christ to go through the conversion process with them and hopefully they would accept His gift, but also explain the gift of eternal life as being like the car analogy I gave. The knowing they have it is by the guarantee that was given to them at their conversion of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by bling View Post
                    You have eternal life in heaven now, but how do you use it now?
                    That doesn't even make sense. How can I have eternal life in heaven if I am here in a mortal life? That is pure Christian Jargon without meaning. I have eternal life because through Jesus' sacrifice so I will live forever with God. When my body dies, my spirit goes to the Lord, and then I will get a new immortal body and continue to live forever. But if you are right then you only have the HOPE that one day you will get eternal life, because you might decide one day to walk away from it. If you do, then you never had it to begin with. You could actually be unsaved and do not know it. You are dependent on your future self's actions.

                    I rest assured that I am saved now, meaning I can't lose eternal life, and that means I currently HAVE eternal life, right here, right now.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by bling View Post
                      Eternal life comes with their conversion and I allow Christ to go through the conversion process with them and hopefully they would accept His gift, but also explain the gift of eternal life as being like the car analogy I gave. The knowing they have it is by the guarantee that was given to them at their conversion of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
                      Yes. But what would you explian to that one so that one would have Christ through this conversion pressess?
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        That doesn't even make sense. How can I have eternal life in heaven if I am here in a mortal life? That is pure Christian Jargon without meaning. I have eternal life because through Jesus' sacrifice so I will live forever with God. When my body dies, my spirit goes to the Lord, and then I will get a new immortal body and continue to live forever. But if you are right then you only have the HOPE that one day you will get eternal life, because you might decide one day to walk away from it. If you do, then you never had it to begin with. You could actually be unsaved and do not know it. You are dependent on your future self's actions.

                        I rest assured that I am saved now, meaning I can't lose eternal life, and that means I currently HAVE eternal life, right here, right now.
                        I do not understand why you say: “If you do, then you never had it to begin with”?

                        At my conversion I am given the gift of eternal life (like a car being given to me) so it is mine, the fact I am not driving it yet does not mean I do not have it (this is what I am saying). If it is truly mine I can give it away.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Yes. But what would you explian to that one so that one would have Christ through this conversion pressess?
                          Everyone is different, but if he/she was primed like those on Pentecost, I might just repeat Peter's words in Acts 2. I could use Paul's words to unbelievers if they fit.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by bling View Post
                            I do not understand why you say: “If you do, then you never had it to begin with”?

                            At my conversion I am given the gift of eternal life (like a car being given to me) so it is mine, the fact I am not driving it yet does not mean I do not have it (this is what I am saying). If it is truly mine I can give it away.
                            but you aren't given a car. Eternal life isn't sitting there in your driveway. Nobody actually gets eternal life until we are resurrected. Until then we are mortals. We are promised eternal life. If you can give that up, then the promise is meaningless. If you think you will one day be immortal and live forever with God, but in reality two months from now you will turn away from the faith, then your current belief is wrong, isn't it? You will not be living eternally with God. You are wrong. Therefore even though you think you will be living forever with God and are saved, you aren't. You are damned. Your salvation is held hostage by your future self.

                            Jesus says no one can snatch us from his father's hand. That means not even our idiotic future selves. If we are actually forgiven and saved then that means we are saved from all past and future sins. If give up our salvation, then we are not forgiven of anything, are we, because we will one day pay for all of our sins. So your current "salvation" is fake if you do give up your salvation at a future time.

                            Our salvation doesn't depend on us. It depends on Jesus and the Father. If they have forgiven us of our sins, then we are forgiven. We can't turn around and say "well I have decided I don't want to be forgiven afterall" - it is done, finished.

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                            • #44
                              one more thing. Those who say you can lose your salvation seem to think that "well God is not going to force you to be saved if you don't want to be"

                              But the way I see it is that he is not forcing you to do anything. He is protecting you from being wrong.

                              Let's say you stop believing a week before you die. Then there you are standing before God and he says "Surprise!"

                              Are you going to say "Bah! I dont want to be saved"
                              or will you say, "Oh God! I was so wrong to turn away. Please take me and save me! I didn't mean to lose my faith!"

                              I think God will say, "You were always saved. No one can snatch you from my hand."

                              Not, "Oops, sorry, I know you were faithful for 50 years, but last week you changed your mind, so off to hell you go!"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I have things from several pages back to try to catch up on later. For now, I'll note that I apparently have a significantly different understanding of "eternal life" than several participants in this thread. I do not take it primarily as "that future state of existence awaiting believers," but as "that metaphysical quantity which enters a person consequent to 'faith' and causes that person to be 'born again' and indwelt by the Spirit of life," and which is then carried on to that future existence."
                                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                                Beige Federalist.

                                Nationalist Christian.

                                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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