Old Testament worship of Christians is the root of Islam.

[Jesus Maranatha]

Narnian stated correctly. Christ taught hate-greed promoted violence is evil. So I believe too. Every violence even with obvious good intention as in case disciplining children is counterproductive as psychology states. As O.T. like Gita promotes murderous violence I reject those too. Christ also rejected O.T. and replaced it with N.T. We become what we worship. if we worship Christ we slowly become like him. But if we mix it with O.T. and revelation God worship, we rather become more like the latter vengeful god. As we are also of vengeful nature we become more drawn to them than Christ.

When Jesus was asked , what was the first commandment . He cited the OT and affirmed his faith in YHWH , the God of the OT .

According to the NT , Jesus will return as the Lion Of Judah , as King and Judge , and He will cast all of the wicked into the lake of fire . So you're notion of Jesus as an effeminite pacifist is nonsense .

More , the Logos , Jesus before his incanration , participated in all of the wars and killing in the OT . New Agers like you and Narnian fail to realize that , God has every right to take life , in virtue of being the author and source of it .

God is under no obligation to give you another second of consciousness , of life . If he decided to kill you , he could do that , and it would be perfectly within His right to do so .


Maranatha
bro.John

[Jesus Maranatha]

Narnian stated correctly. Christ taught hate-greed promoted violence is evil. So I believe too. Every violence even with obvious good intention as in case disciplining children is counterproductive as psychology states. As O.T. like Gita promotes murderous violence I reject those too. Christ also rejected O.T. and replaced it with N.T. We become what we worship. if we worship Christ we slowly become like him. But if we mix it with O.T. and revelation God worship, we rather become more like the latter vengeful god. As we are also of vengeful nature we become more drawn to them than Christ.

When Jesus was asked , what was the first commandment . He cited the OT and affirmed his faith in YHWH , the God of the OT .

According to the NT , Jesus will return as the Lion Of Judah , as King and Judge , and He will cast all of the wicked into the lake of fire . So you're notion of Jesus as an effeminite pacifist is nonsense .

More , the Logos , Jesus before his incanration , participated in all of the wars and killing in the OT . New Agers like you and Narnian fail to realize that , God has every right to take life , in virtue of being the author and source of it .

God is under no obligation to give you another second of consciousness , of life . If he decided to kill you , he could do that , and it would be perfectly within His right to do so .


Maranatha
bro.John

[barnasha]

When Jesus was asked , what was the first commandment . He cited the OT and affirmed his faith in YHWH , the God of the OT .

Abraham's God is not a god of a covenant (or "testament"), old or new.

But it is the master of all creation.

Adam was there before any covenant ("Old Testament", or 'Old Covenant', a christian invention) and so was his creator.

[Jesus Maranatha]

Abraham's God is not a god of a covenant (or "testament"), old or new.

But it is the master of all creation.

Adam was there before any covenant ("Old Testament", or 'Old Covenant', a christian invention) and so was his creator.

No , that demonstrated your complete ignorance of our God . Our Living God is a God of covenants ( promises and oaths ) . How does that not make Him " master of all creation " ?

The Bible speaks of six different covenants, five of which God made with the nation of Israel :

The Adamic covenant ..can be thought of in two parts: the Edenic Covenant (innocence) and the Adamic Covenant (grace) (Genesis 3:16-19). The Edenic Covenant is found in Genesis 1:26-30; 2:16-17. It outlines man’s responsibility toward creation and God’s directive regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Adamic Covenant included the curses pronounced against mankind for the sin of Adam and Eve, as well as God’s provision for that sin (Genesis 3:15).

Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 12:1-3, 6-7; 13:14-17; 15; 17:1-14; 22:15-18). In this covenant, God promised many things to Abraham. He personally promised that He would make Abraham’s name great (Genesis 12:2), that Abraham would have numerous physical descendents (Genesis 13:16), and that he would be the father of a multitude of nations (Genesis 17:4-5). God also made promises regarding a nation called Israel. In fact, the geographical boundaries of the Abrahamic Covenant are laid out on more than one occasion in the book of Genesis (12:7; 13:14-15; 15:18-21).

Another provision in the Abrahamic covenant is that the families of the world will be blessed through the physical line of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 22:18). This is a reference to the Messiah, who would come from the line of Abraham.

Mosaic Covenant (Deuteronomy 11; et al). The Mosaic Covenant was a conditional covenant that either brought God's direct blessing for obedience or God's direct cursing for disobedience upon the nation of Israel. Part of the Mosaic Covenant was the ten commandments found in Exodus 20, but also the rest of the law which contained over 600 commands—roughly 300 positive and 300 negative. The history books of the Old Testament (Joshua-Esther) detail how Israel succeeded at obeying the law or how Israel failed miserably at obeying the law. Deuteronomy 11:26-28 details specifically the blessing/cursing motif.

Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7:8-16). The Davidic Covenant amplifies the seed aspect which was detailed in the Abrahamic Covenant. The promises to David in this passage are very significant. God promised that David's physical line of descent would last forever and that his kingdom would never pass away permanently (verse 16). This kingdom, furthermore, would have a ruling individual exercising authority over it (verse 16). Obviously, the Davidic throne has not been in place at all times. There will be a time, however, when someone from the line of David will again sit on the throne and rule as king. This future king is Jesus (Luke 1:32-33).

New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34). The New Covenant is a covenant made with the nation of Israel which speaks about the blessings which are detailed in the Abrahamic covenant. In the new covenant, God promises to forgive sin, and there will be a universal knowledge of the Lord (verse 34). It even appears that the nation of Israel will have a special relationship with their God (verse 33).


There are more convenants through out the bible , but those are the major ones .


Maranatha
bro.john

[barnasha]

Abraham's God is not a god of a covenant (or "testament"), old or new.

But it is the master of all creation.

Adam was there before any covenant ("Old Testament", or 'Old Covenant', a christian invention) and so was his creator.

No , that demonstrated your complete ignorance of our God . Our Living God is a God of covenants ( promises and oaths ) . How does that not make Him " master of all creation " ?

I was not talking about your god, I was talking about Abraham's god.

[smaneck]

Abraham's God is not a god of a covenant (or "testament"), old or new.

But it is the master of all creation.

Adam was there before any covenant ("Old Testament", or 'Old Covenant', a christian invention) and so was his creator.

Barmasha,

How can you say that?

Haven't you heard of the Covenant of Alast?

172. When thy Lord drew forth from the children of Adam, from their loins, their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?" They said: "Yea! we do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful."

173. Or lest ye should say: "Our fathers before us may have taken false gods but we are (their) descendants after them: wilt thou then destroy us because of the deeds of men who were futile?"

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 7)

[Jesus Maranatha]

I was not talking about your god, I was talking about Abraham's god.

Our God , Yahweh is the One True Living God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob . Your god , is a dead god , a figment of your imagination . That's why you're so miserable and on the way to hell .

Maranatha
bro.John

[barnasha]

Our God , Yahweh is the One True Living God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob . Your god , is a dead god , a figment of your imagination . That's why you're so miserable and on the way to hell .

Maranatha
bro.John

What makes you an expert of who I am and what I worship?

I am not afraid of anything you have the power to condemn me to.

Abraham's God is not a god of a covenant (or "testament"), old or new.

But it is the master of all creation.

Adam was there before any covenant ("Old Testament", or 'Old Covenant', a christian invention) and so was his creator.

Barmasha,

How can you say that?


Haven't you heard of the Covenant of Alast?

172. When thy Lord drew forth from the children of Adam, from their loins, their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?" They said: "Yea! we do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful."

173. Or lest ye should say: "Our fathers before us may have taken false gods but we are (their) descendants after them: wilt thou then destroy us because of the deeds of men who were futile?"

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 7)

The creator of all that exists, "was" before any covenant between it and its creation.

The covenant is something relative to the people (creations) who enter into it.

[smaneck]

What makes you an expert of who I am and what I worship?

I am not afraid of anything you have the power to condemn me to.

The creator of all that exists, "was" before any covenant between it and its creation.

The covenant is something relative to the people (creations) who enter into it.

Of course, since the Covenant was intended to be relational. Yet according to the Qur'an it is also primordial.

[barnasha]

Of course, since the Covenant was intended to be relational. Yet according to the Qur'an it is also primordial.

If you're talking about the 'covenant' mentioned in surah 7 around verse 172. how do you consider that a "covenant"?

(And what I said still applies since the creations must first be created.)

[smaneck]

If you're talking about the 'covenant' mentioned in surah 7 around verse 172. how do you consider that a "covenant"?

Dear Barmasha,

It is modeled after the Covenant on Sinai. Note the preceeding verse:

“When We shook the Mount over them, as if it had been a canopy, and they thought it was going to fall on them (We said): "Hold firmly to what We have given you, and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein; perchance ye may fear Allah." (7:171)

But the Qur’an then goes on to place the Sinai event before and outside of time:

And (remember) when thy Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their reins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves, (saying): Am I not your Lord? They said: Yea, verily. We testify. (That was) lest ye should say at the Day of Resurrection: Lo! of this we were unaware; Or you should say: Only our fathers associated others (with Allah) before, and we were an offspring after them: Wilt Thou then destroy us for what the vain doers did?”

This event that establishes the primordial Covenant is known in Islam as the Day of Alast, mamed after the question God asks, “Am I not your Lord?” alastu bi-rabbikam

A couple of things might be noted about this passage. First it is an event that happens in the pre-existence, an event in which we are all said to be present. Because we all give answer to this question, we all become partners to the Covenant thus created. That Covenant consists of an acknowledgement of God’s lordship, and of our willingness to submit to it. In that primordial response, human responsibility is born. Thus the Day of Alast is intimately tied to the Day of Resurrection. If we fail to subsequently live our lives continuing to acknowledge His Lordship we can neither claim ignorance or that we were merely doing as our forefathers had taught us. The Covenant, thus conceived, is not so much about what we think or believe, it is rather a matter of the directionality of our will. Does it acknowledge God’s Lordship or seek to do its own will?

Annemarie Shimmel describes the significance of this event in Islamic mysticism:
“The idea of this primordial covenant (mithaq) between God and humanity has impressed the religious conscience of the Muslims, and especially the Muslim mystics, more than any other idea. Here is the starting point for their understanding of free will and predestination, of election and acceptance, of God's eternal power and man's loving response and promise. The goal of the mystic is to return to the experience of the "Day of Alastu," when only God existed, before He led future creatures out of the abyss of not-being and endowed them with life, love, and understanding so that they might face Him again at the end of time."1

The problem, of course, is that we don’t remember that Covenant, we are forgetful. Forgetfulness in Islam is regarded as the basis of all evil, an evil that can only be overcome by bringing our relationship to God constantly to mind in acts of remembrance.
A major goal of Sufism has been to “remember” the ecstasy of God’s primordial presence and of our response to Him, one that only a true adept is deemed able to attain. Sufis declare they are mast-e Alast, drunken because God asked men's souls before Creation, "Am I not (alastu) your Lord?" and they affirmed it. This covenant before time itself between lover and Beloved is a source of such joy that its recollection instantly intoxicates anyone who understands it.

warmest, Susan

[barnasha]

First it is an event that happens in the pre-existence

....not in the pre-existence of whatever it is other than Allah that is referred to in that passage. For there to be something other than Allah, it must exist -- even if that is in the hypothetical, theoretical, or allegorical sense.


I should say if not for the benefit of you or I, but perhaps for another who will read this: one must not, especially in passages such as these, look at it as if it should fit into a particular linear time frame; after all, the concept of time and its passage is applicable from the point of view of creation[s] only.

[Dan Zebiri]

Barnasha,

Why do you continually present hypocritical traits, trying to accept Jesus only as a prophet, but not as One who had already declared His coming to this world was to sacrifice his life 'AS A RANSOM FOR MANY'??

That word 'Ransom' is to BE AN ACTUAL REDEMPTION, And not merely to suffer derisions patiently or merely to be a nice example to other people!

I already showed you verses where Jesus declared that He alone CAN GIVE ETERNAL LIFE; and He also FORGAVE MANY PEOPLES' Sins unlike your Muhamad who is completely impotent to do anything of the sort!

John10 : 27 - 30 :-
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 and I give ETERNAL LIFE to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

30 "I and the Father are one."

And a few verses earlier,Jesus again proclaimed:

17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it up again.

18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.."

This IS NOT Preaching at you, but exposing your selective cherry-picking of what the Gospel actually states unequivocally about Jesus Christ.

Ignore them at your real eternal peril, my friend!

Dan.

[barnasha]

Barnasha,

Why do you continually present hypocritical traits, trying to accept Jesus only as a prophet, but not as One who had already declared His coming to this world was to sacrifice his life 'AS A RANSOM FOR MANY'??

I don't understand your question, nor its relevance.. could you explain more clearly?

[Dan Zebiri]

Well barney,

Even though you quote from the New Testament, eg.from James 3, etc you still fail to acknowledge the true nature of Jesus Christ as testified by the New Testament and the 4 Gospels.

You refuse to acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God, as the Lamb of God Crucified - who takes away the sins of the world,as a ransom for many souls etc.

Thats why you only have a deformity of a real picture of Christ Jesus.

Which is the same problem the Quran has about Jesus Christ.