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Christians Tortured, Humiliated, and Murdered Jesus?

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  • Christians Tortured, Humiliated, and Murdered Jesus?

    Recently bling said

    "I am personally responsible for Christ being tortured humiliated and murdered on the cross.*
    That takes lot of explaining and time."

    This doesn't make any sense to me, so let's discuss it. To me, it seems pretty simple. Being Christian, bling would be like the many admirers and followers of Jesus and weep at the spectacle. He wouldn't be cheering the torturers on. Regarding myself, I also wouldn't campaign for the torture of anyone today, so I definitely wouldn't campaign for it in first century Palestine. Why assume that I would? That sounds hideous. I'd be the sort to avoid such a gathering of religious nutters. We see extremist Muslims engaging in the same sort of behavior today. This isn't my kind of scene.

    That it takes a tremendous amount of explication to convey the idea isn't surprising to me. If it's a required belief of Christianity, it seems like a huge and unnecessary cognitive obstacle. I'd like to how people who believe it explain it in more detail.

    People who can't participate in this thread:

    JimL, Tassman, shunyadragon

  • #2
    Can you provide, perhaps, the actual quote (using the quote function or citation) from Bling so we can discuss it in context?

    Thanks.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Can you provide, perhaps, the actual quote (using the quote function or citation) from Bling so we can discuss it in context?

      Thanks.
      It wasn't embedded in a lot of text, but here's the link to the post:

      http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post352435

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by whag View Post
        It wasn't embedded in a lot of text, but here's the link to the post:

        http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post352435
        OK, thanks - gonna be in meetings for a couple hours, but I'll look at it.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by whag View Post
          Recently bling said

          "I am personally responsible for Christ being tortured humiliated and murdered on the cross.*
          That takes lot of explaining and time."

          This doesn't make any sense to me, so let's discuss it. To me, it seems pretty simple. Being Christian, bling would be like the many admirers and followers of Jesus and weep at the spectacle. He wouldn't be cheering the torturers on. Regarding myself, I also wouldn't campaign for the torture of anyone today, so I definitely wouldn't campaign for it in first century Palestine. Why assume that I would? That sounds hideous. I'd be the sort to avoid such a gathering of religious nutters. We see extremist Muslims engaging in the same sort of behavior today. This isn't my kind of scene.

          That it takes a tremendous amount of explication to convey the idea isn't surprising to me. If it's a required belief of Christianity, it seems like a huge and unnecessary cognitive obstacle. I'd like to how people who believe it explain it in more detail.

          People who can't participate in this thread:

          JimL, Tassman, shunyadragon
          I'm not sure what the problem is. If Christ died for our sins, then it is our sins (individually and collectively) that was the direct cause of His sacrifice.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            I will repost what I posted in the other thread:

            What it means is that Jesus gave his life as a sacrifice for our sins. Every one of us. That means our actions and sins are WHY Jesus had to die, and each of us contributed to that death, making us responsible. Without our sins, Jesus would not have had to suffer and die.

            Which means EVERYONE is responsible: me, bling, and even you whag.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              I'm not sure what the problem is. If Christ died for our sins, then it is our sins (individually and collectively) that was the direct cause of His sacrifice.
              Yeah, which is why I wanted to see the context - didn't sound all that weird to me.

              Going to meetings!
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Good comments so far, but I do see more to it, but will wait on other's ideas.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Isaiah 53:5, NASB

                  "But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
                  He was crushed for our iniquities;
                  The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
                  And by His scourging we are healed."

                  Or, if you prefer the KJV:

                  "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."


                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here's an analogy. If you did something incredibly stupid and some one else had to save your life at the cost of their own life, would your stupidity be a cause of their death in a way? Of course the rescuer could have chosen not to save you, but that wasn't a viable option in their minds. They were willing to preform a heroic sacrifice to save you even though your stupid choice would result in their death.
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There's an old song that I sang in a group years ago that I think helps.

                      "Who Killed Jesus?"

                      Who killed Jesus? I would like to know.
                      Who is guilty of a crime so low?
                      Why did He have to die?
                      What is the reason why?
                      Who killed Jesus?
                      I would like to know.


                      Was it Roman Soldiers, with their tools of war?
                      Driving nails through hands that did no wrong.
                      Mocking and abusing, crowning Him with thorns,
                      All the evidence is very clear.

                      Was it Pontius Pilate, he was Governor,
                      Trying to decide the case that day?
                      Finding that the Savior had no fault His own,
                      Was he guilty when he turned away?

                      Was it Hebrew children, proud of who they were?
                      Shouting "Crucify Him" to their King.
                      Rejecting their Messiah for a common thief
                      Turning down the Kingdom He could bring.

                      When I think of Jesus, and the way He died,
                      How upon Him all my sin was lain.
                      All the other people, fade away from view,
                      It's for me the Sacrifice was made.

                      I no longer wonder anymore,
                      I have found what I've been searching for;
                      My sin demanded Hell, on Him the Judgment fell,
                      I am guilty, now it's plain to see,
                      that it was really me!


                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think the title of the thread is a bit misleading. We aren't exactly criminally responsible for the murder of Jesus. He laid his life down for our sake. Our sinful behavior is why He came to die a sinful death, but we didn't come up with that idea of the Son of God taking on a human nature/flesh and dying on the cross for us.
                        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ". . . All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . . Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, . . . because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." -- Isaiah 53:6, 10, 12.

                          ". . . For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: . . . For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." -- 2 Corinthians 5:14, 21.

                          ". . . write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. . . ." -- 1 John 1:1-2.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            I will repost what I posted in the other thread:
                            Yes, this is good as it relates to those other thread topics that JimL and Tassman derailed.

                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            What it means is that Jesus gave his life as a sacrifice for our sins. Every one of us. That means our actions and sins are WHY Jesus had to die, and each of us contributed to that death, making us responsible. Without our sins, Jesus would not have had to suffer and die.
                            "Jesus would not have had to suffer and die" implies a different scenario was possible. I think we already established that sin, being inevitable, was baked into the teleology and is the only thing that enables a perfect world sans moral and natural evil. Without it, the world would be frozen in a suboptimal state that God could only call "good."

                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Which means EVERYONE is responsible: me, bling, and even you whag.
                            Bling's implication (at least the way I interpreted it) was that he'd have cheered Jesus' torture and murder if he lived during that time. I wanted to clarify that's not true. Rather, there's a more nuanced theological perspective that bling believes makes him indirectly complicit in the event. Fine. There are problems with it that I referenced above, but at least we clarified that bling or you or me wouldn't have literally called for Jesus' torture and execution. That demand was from a specific religious power-hungry group.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                              I think the title of the thread is a bit misleading. We aren't exactly criminally responsible for the murder of Jesus. He laid his life down for our sake. Our sinful behavior is why He came to die a sinful death, but we didn't come up with that idea of the Son of God taking on a human nature/flesh and dying on the cross for us.
                              I meant to put a question mark after it. =)

                              Comment

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