Can volcanic eruptions cause shatter cones?

[rwatts]

While waiting for visitors to arrive, I googled "can shatter cones be caused by volcanic eruptions".

None of the returns said that they could. All returns claimed that meteorite impacts caused them.

[shunyadragon]

While waiting for visitors to arrive, I googled "can shatter cones be caused by volcanic eruptions".

None of the returns said that they could. All returns claimed that meteorite impacts caused them.

No, shatter cones are only related to meteorite impacts. The metamorphic shock structures can only be created by impacts. Volcanoes ca create similar looking structures, but lack metamorphic shock features. Volcanic structures always have igneous deposits such as basalt

For more information on shock metamorphism see http://www.meteorimpactonearth.com/impactmeta.html

[oxmixmudd]

No, shatter cones are only related to meteorite impacts. The metamorphic shock structures can only be created by impacts. Volcanoes ca create similar looking structures, but lack metamorphic shock features. Volcanic structures always have igneous deposits such as basalt

For more information on shock metamorphism see http://www.meteorimpactonearth.com/impactmeta.html

I'm putting together a look at what the research shows about the maximum pressures that can be expected in volcanic events and comparing that with the minimum required for shatter-cones and shocked quartz. My sig has a basic summary, but it does not come anywhere near showing why or how those numbers are arrived at. The bottom line is you are dealing with magma temperatures less than 1/10 the temperatures of an incoming meteor. Although I'm having problems finding estimates of the actual temperatures for larger asteroids, this note was found concerning the much smaller chelyabinsk meteor that recently fell in Russia:

When it exploded about 18.5 miles above the ground, the space rock shone 30 times brighter than the sun and sent out so much ultraviolet light that eyewitnesses directly below it developed serious sunburns, Jenniskens said.

To produce that much UV, the temperature would have needed to have been very high (10000C?).

Continuing, the fracture strength of rock is a very small fraction (<1/100) of that required to form a shatter cone, so the shock must be created quickly and violently - far easier with a mile wide asteroid entering the atmosphere at 20 miles per second at >7000C than from direct magma heat (700C-1300C) induced steam overpressure prior to an explosion.

And the differences are orders of magnitude. And just making the event 'really big', a la the proposed 'fountains of the deep' mega event does not create massively larger pressures and shock waves than those found in more normal events - they would just be larger in scope (have more total energy)


Jim

[rwatts]

I'm putting together a look at what the research shows about the maximum pressures that can be expected in volcanic events and comparing that with the minimum required for shatter-cones and shocked quartz. My sig has a basic summary, but it does not come anywhere near showing why or how those numbers are arrived at. The bottom line is you are dealing with magma temperatures less than 1/10 the temperatures of an incoming meteor. Although I'm having problems finding estimates of the actual temperatures for larger asteroids, this note was found concerning the much smaller chelyabinsk meteor that recently fell in Russia:

When it exploded about 18.5 miles above the ground, the space rock shone 30 times brighter than the sun and sent out so much ultraviolet light that eyewitnesses directly below it developed serious sunburns, Jenniskens said.

To produce that much UV, the temperature would have needed to have been very high (10000C?).

Continuing, the fracture strength of rock is a very small fraction (<1/100) of that required to form a shatter cone, so the shock must be created quickly and violently - far easier with a mile wide asteroid entering the atmosphere at 20 miles per second at >7000C than from direct magma heat (700C-1300C) induced steam overpressure prior to an explosion.

And the differences are orders of magnitude. And just making the event 'really big', a la the proposed 'fountains of the deep' mega event does not create massively larger pressures and shock waves than those found in more normal events - they would just be larger in scope (have more total energy)


Jim

So has Jorge popped in to defend his absurd claim, and I missed it?

[oxmixmudd]

So has Jorge popped in to defend his absurd claim, and I missed it?

No - he knows he can't on this one. He has been trying to defend the idea birds are not descended from dinosaurs. He probably hasn't kept up with that sufficiently to be aware it is also a futile effort.


Jim

[rwatts]

No - he knows he can't on this one. He has been trying to defend the idea birds are not descended from dinosaurs. He probably hasn't kept up with that sufficiently to be aware it is also a futile effort.


Jim

So does Jorge think he speaks for a God of pure truth when he makes such erroneous claims?

He must be aware of this problem given how you continually point it out to him.|

Some (but not all) creationists make God look like a dimwit, only to be worshipped in order to escape the hell they say exists.

Many Christians don't make God look such an idiot, and by their behaviour, if God exists, they show him to be an entity worthy of worship.

What I always do not understand is why creationists like Jorge choose the former. I post a lot on facebook sites and meet many creationists of a similar nature.

Not all are like this by a long shot. But many are.

If the god who guides them is the same God who guided the authors of the Bible, then surely the Bible is full or errors and silly remarks.

I don't think these creationists fully appreciate the consequences of their dorky behaviour.

[simplicio]

While waiting for visitors to arrive, I googled "can shatter cones be caused by volcanic eruptions".

None of the returns said that they could. All returns claimed that meteorite impacts caused them.

The argument usually turns to either "true science ....." or "the truth is suppressed by secular science", the first rejects any ability to know things about nature, the second depends on a worldwide conspiracy of scientists. Either way, the creationist position is unassailable, impervious to any counter claims or arguments.

But volcanoes are handy to toss a virgin or two in, the argument is for tossing in virgins is about as strong as that for volcanoes causing shatter cone crystalizations. I wonder if tossing in an Aussie or two would appease the divine powers?

[oxmixmudd]

The argument usually turns to either "true science ....." or "the truth is suppressed by secular science", the first rejects any ability to know things about nature, the second depends on a worldwide conspiracy of scientists. Either way, the creationist position is unassailable, impervious to any counter claims or arguments.

But volcanoes are handy to toss a virgin or two in, the argument is for tossing in virgins is about as strong as that for volcanoes causing shatter cone crystalizations. I wonder if tossing in an Aussie or two would appease the divine powers?

[Creation 'Science']Only in Southern Hemisphere volcanoes. They fall the wrong way in the Northern Hemisphere[/Creation 'Science']

[shunyadragon]

[Creation 'Science']Only in Southern Hemisphere volcanoes. They fall the wrong way in the Northern Hemisphere[/Creation 'Science']

Curious? Explain?

I believe significant shock cones and shock metamorphism are found only in extremely large meteorite impacts.

[oxmixmudd]

Curious? Explain?

I believe significant shock cones and shock metamorphism are found only in extremely large meteorite impacts.

Now shunya, as much as I've said on this topic, how could you even for a moment think I was saying volcanoes might be able to do it! SHAME on you

No - I'm just bouncing off of the last sentence in simplicio's comment about sacrificing Aussies in volcanoes, and then applying a little 'creation science' to the reasoning behind why it would not work very well on our side of the globe.


Jim

[HMS_Beagle]

Curious? Explain?

I believe significant shock cones and shock metamorphism are found only in extremely large meteorite impacts.

Did someone purloin your sense of humor?

[Roy]

[Creation 'Science']Only in Southern Hemisphere volcanoes. They fall the wrong way in the Northern Hemisphere[/Creation 'Science']

Round here it's difficult to find experimental subjects.

[shunyadragon]

Did someone purloin your sense of humor?

It was confusing not humorous.

[simplicio]

It was confusing not humorous.

Well, it is possible that oxmixmudd might believe that round earth stuff, which is implied by comments on the southern hemisphere falling in a different direction. But as a resident of the proper hemisphere (it is at the top of the map after all), I think tossing an aussie into a volcano a valuable scientific exercise.

[HMS_Beagle]

It was confusing not humorous.

Most of the humor came from watching you act all huffy because you didn't get the joke.