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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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Book of Revelation

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  • #31
    Originally posted by RGJesus View Post
    It appears that Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, and the beginning and the ending. But it doesn't appear that he is called the Almighty God.

    What does this tell us?
    It tells us two things. First, Jesus as the Christ has two natures. Second, your reading of the texts ingnores cross contexts where the pre-incarnate Christ refers to Himself as Almighty God.

    ". . . And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. . . ." -- Genesis 17:1.

    ". . . No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. . . ." -- John 1:18.

    ". . . I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. . . ." -- John 8:24.
    ". . . Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. . . ." -- John 8:56.

    ". . . Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. . . ." -- John 14:6.
    Last edited by 37818; 11-13-2016, 11:10 AM.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by RGJesus View Post
      It appears that Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, and the beginning and the ending. But it doesn't appear that he is called the Almighty God.

      What does this tell us?
      A careful reading of the Revelation shows that Jesus is never called the alpha and the Omega (τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ). The expression is used only three times in the Revelation (Rev. 1:8, 21:6, 22:13) and each time it refers to the Father, and not to Jesus.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        The Bible calls him God in a lot of places, as I posted. Alpha and Omega, First and Last are also titles of God. The implication is clear, that Jesus is God.

        YHWH is the "First and the Last":

        Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

        Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."

        Jesus is the "First and the Last":

        Rev. 1:17 "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’"

        Rev. 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again."

        Rev. 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
        That's not true. Here's Daniel Wallace:


        Few today would take issue with Rudolf Bultmann’s oft-quoted line that “In describing Christ as ‘God’ the New Testament still exercises great restraint.”2 The list of passages which seem explicitly to identify Christ with God varies from scholar to scholar, but the number is almost never more than a half dozen or so.3 As is well known, almost all of the texts are disputed as to their affirmation—due to textual or grammatical glitches—John 1:1 and 20:28 being the only two which are usually conceded without discussion.4 Among the more highly regarded passages are Rom 9:5; 2 Thess 1:12; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:8; and 2 Pet 1:1.
        And footnote 4 concedes that even John 1:1 and John 20:28 are debatable :

        Even here there is debate however. See Harris, Jesus as God, 51-71 (on John 1:1), 105-129 (on John 20:28).

        Comment


        • #34
          "Debatable" does not mean "not true".

          There are always people who will debate and not accept things that are indeed quite true.

          Atheists are such people.

          I accept as true and affirm ― along with all the other "debatable" texts that assert the same truth ― Thomas' declaration to Jesus: "My Lord and my God"!
          Last edited by John Reece; 11-23-2016, 07:12 AM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
            That's not true. Here's Daniel Wallace:




            And footnote 4 concedes that even John 1:1 and John 20:28 are debatable :
            Nothing you quoted denied that Jesus was claiming to be God in Revelation with the title "First and Last" or in other places in the bible. All you showed is that the bible is "restrained" in calling him God, not that it does not.

            Try harder.

            Comment


            • #36
              Hi Sparko,

              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Nothing you quoted denied that Jesus was claiming to be God in Revelation with the title "First and Last" or in other places in the bible. All you showed is that the bible is "restrained" in calling him God, not that it does not.

              Try harder.
              You said the bible calls Jesus "God" in "a lot " of places. This assertion is false, with even Trinitarian scholarship in disagreement with your claim. According to Wallace for instance, there are barely six different verses in the bible where Jesus is called God, none beyond reproach.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                Hi Sparko,



                You said the bible calls Jesus "God" in "a lot " of places. This assertion is false, with even Trinitarian scholarship in disagreement with your claim. According to Wallace for instance, there are barely six different verses in the bible where Jesus is called God, none beyond reproach.
                sigh.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                  "Debatable" does not mean "not true".

                  There are always people who will debate and not accept things that are indeed quite true.

                  Atheists are such people.

                  I accept as true and affirm ― along with all the other "debatable" texts that assert the same truth ― Thomas' declaration to Jesus: "My Lord and my God"!
                  Correct. The problem however is that none of the verses which apparently call Jesus "God" in the GNT are built upon an unshakable foundation, all of them are [easily,IMHO] disputable, permitting an entirely different interpretation other than that Jesus is "God". Here's William Barclay, Jesus as They Saw Him, p.21. :

                  "It is when we begin to examine the evidence that we run into very real difficulties. The
                  evidence is not extensive
                  . But we shall find that on almost every occasion in the New
                  Testament on which Jesus seems to be called God there is a problem either of
                  textual criticism or of translation. In almost every case we have to discuss which of
                  two readings is to be accepted
                  or which of two possible translations is to be accepted
                  ."

                  D.A. Fennema ( John 1.18: God the Only Son, p. 125) is more blunt :

                  "Most of the passages which may call Jesus ‘God’ are plagued by textual variants or
                  syntactical obscurity, either of which permits an entirely different interpretation of the
                  passage
                  ."
                  Ref:

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                    Correct. The problem however is that none of the verses which apparently call Jesus "God" in the GNT are built upon an unshakable foundation, all of them are [easily,IMHO] disputable, permitting an entirely different interpretation other than that Jesus is "God". ....
                    'All verses that call Jesus "God" are "easily disputable"' ― in your not really humble opinion ― in your mind because of your presuppositions as an atheist.

                    From your reference "Jesus Is God Bible Verses?" by Servetus the Evangelical":
                    .... Traditionalists cite John 1.1c and 20.28 as incontrovertible evidence Jesus is God. Oscar Cullmann calls them “indisputable;” Murray Harris says they are “incontestable.”

                    From The Gospel According to John, (Pillar: Eerdmans, 1991) by D. A. Carson, © 1991 D. A. Carson, page circa 117 via Accordance.
                    More, the Word was God. That is the translation demanded by the Greek structure, theos ēn ho logos. A long string of writers has argued that because theos, ‘God’, here has no article, John is not referring to God as a specific being, but to mere qualities of ‘God-ness’. The Word, they say, was not God, but divine. This will not do. There is a perfectly serviceable word in Greek for ‘divine’ (namely theios). More importantly, there are many places in the New Testament where the predicate noun has no article, and yet is specific. Even in this chapter, ‘you are the King of Israel’ (1:49) has no article before ‘King’ in the original (cf. also Jn. 8:39; 17:17; Rom. 14:17; Gal. 4:25; Rev. 1:20). It has been shown that it is common for a definite predicate noun in this construction, placed before the verb, to be anarthrous (that is, to have no article; ...). Indeed, the effect of ordering the words this way is to emphasize ‘God’, as if John were saying, ‘and the word was God!’ In fact, if John had included the article, he would have been saying something quite untrue. He would have been so identifying the Word with God that no divine being could exist apart from the Word. In that case, it would be nonsense to say (in the words of the second clause of this verse) that the Word was with God. The ‘Word does not by Himself make up the entire Godhead; nevertheless the divinity that belongs to the rest of the Godhead belongs also to Him’ (Tasker, p. 45. ‘The Word was with God, God’s eternal Fellow; the Word was God, God’s own Self.’)

                    You really cannot refute Carson's exegesis; nor can you refute the exegetical conclusions arrived at by the competent scholarship of Oscar Cullmann and Murray Harris (cited in your work quoted above).

                    Give it up and go away, you are wasting your time and mine.
                    Last edited by John Reece; 11-23-2016, 01:57 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Unitarian, you probably don't want to argue Greek with John Reece. He knows it inside and out.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                        'All verses that call Jesus "God" are "easily disputable"' ― in your not really humble opinion ― in your mind because of your presuppositions as an atheist.

                        From your reference "Jesus Is God Bible Verses?" by Servetus the Evangelical":
                        .... Traditionalists cite John 1.1c and 20.28 as incontrovertible evidence Jesus is God. Oscar Cullmann calls them “indisputable;” Murray Harris says they are “incontestable.”

                        From The Gospel According to John, (Pillar: Eerdmans, 1991) by D. A. Carson, © 1991 D. A. Carson, page circa 117 via Accordance.
                        More, the Word was God. That is the translation demanded by the Greek structure, theos ēn ho logos. A long string of writers has argued that because theos, ‘God’, here has no article, John is not referring to God as a specific being, but to mere qualities of ‘God-ness’. The Word, they say, was not God, but divine. This will not do. There is a perfectly serviceable word in Greek for ‘divine’ (namely theios). More importantly, there are many places in the New Testament where the predicate noun has no article, and yet is specific. Even in this chapter, ‘you are the King of Israel’ (1:49) has no article before ‘King’ in the original (cf. also Jn. 8:39; 17:17; Rom. 14:17; Gal. 4:25; Rev. 1:20). It has been shown that it is common for a definite predicate noun in this construction, placed before the verb, to be anarthrous (that is, to have no article; ...). Indeed, the effect of ordering the words this way is to emphasize ‘God’, as if John were saying, ‘and the word was God!’ In fact, if John had included the article, he would have been saying something quite untrue. He would have been so identifying the Word with God that no divine being could exist apart from the Word. In that case, it would be nonsense to say (in the words of the second clause of this verse) that the Word was with God. The ‘Word does not by Himself make up the entire Godhead; nevertheless the divinity that belongs to the rest of the Godhead belongs also to Him’ (Tasker, p. 45. ‘The Word was with God, God’s eternal Fellow; the Word was God, God’s own Self.’)

                        You really cannot refute Carson's exegesis; nor can you refute the exegetical conclusions arrived at by the competent scholarship of Oscar Cullmann and Murray Harris (cited in your work quoted above).

                        Give it up and go away, you are wasting your time and mine.
                        Your source (Carson ) seems to be arguing that the anarthrous θεὸς at John 1:1c is definite and not "qualitative." He disagrees with "a long string of[Trinitarian] writers" on this score.. His position is rejected by the majority of Trinitarian scholarship for a good reason, because it argues for Sabelianism and against Trinitarianism.
                        Last edited by Unitarian101; 11-23-2016, 02:10 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                          Your source (Carson ) seems to be arguing that the anarthrous θεὸς at John 1:1c is definite and not "qualitative." He disagrees with "a long string of[Trinitarian] writers" on this score.. His position is rejected by the majority of Trinitarian scholarship for a good reason, because it argues for Sabelianism and against Trinitarianism.
                          You bore me; as I said before "go away".

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            It tells us two things. First, Jesus as the Christ has two natures. Second, your reading of the texts ingnores cross contexts where the pre-incarnate Christ refers to Himself as Almighty God.

                            ". . . And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. . . ." -- Genesis 17:1.

                            ". . . No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. . . ." -- John 1:18.

                            ". . . I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. . . ." -- John 8:24.
                            ". . . Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. . . ." -- John 8:56.

                            ". . . Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. . . ." -- John 14:6.
                            This is biblical eisegesis however. John 8:24 for instance has no relation to Genesis 17:1. It's not even saying that Jesus is God. Neither is John 1:18, nor John 8:58.
                            Last edited by Unitarian101; 11-23-2016, 05:22 PM.

                            Comment

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