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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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Book of Revelation

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  • Book of Revelation

    Here's my reading of the first Chapter of Revelation. Notice the following:

    Ἰωάνης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ Πνευμάτων ἃ ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου αὐτοῦ,
    Notice that this name is from Exodus 3:14 --


    14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων· ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν. καὶ εἶπεν· οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς ᾿Ισραήλ· ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέ με πρὸς ὑμᾶς.
    But note that God's name is not ἐγώ εἰμι according to apostle John, it is ὁ ὤν.

  • #2
    Revelation 1:4,8 was not referring to God by name, only by description. And the Septuagint is not necessarily an accurate translation of the Hebrew. In Exodus 3:14 it uses a participle instead of an intransitive verb.
    When I Survey....

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Faber View Post
      Revelation 1:4,8 was not referring to God by name, only by description.
      That' not possible because then it would make for ungrammatical Greek. The only way to save the integrity of the Greek here is to see ὁ ὢν as being indeclinable , as a name.

      In Exodus 3:14 it uses a participle instead of an intransitive verb.
      So does Revelation 1:4,8 .

      And the Septuagint is not necessarily an accurate translation of the Hebrew.
      According to apostle John at Revelation 1:4,8 both use ὁ ὢν as a name of God . Apostle John also has other names for God in the Rev. to be sure -- ὁ ἦν , ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ., etc., but only ὁ ὢν is derived from LXX Exodus 3:14.

      Comment


      • #4
        How many places in the LXX is God referred to as ὁ ὢν? The Hebrew in Exodus 3:14 is twice in the first person.
        אהיה אשׁר אהיה

        And the LXX renders that double first person expression as in a first person - third person manner.
        ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὢν.

        God's Name in the Hebrew through out the OT is in the third person. Who Is - meaning the Self-Existent. Translated typically in the LXX as Κύριος.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          How many places in the LXX is God referred to as ὁ ὢν?
          Twice in the LXX. God is referred to as ὁ ὢν 5 times in the Revelation ! The point is that apostle John agreed with the LXX's understanding of how to render God's name. He did not understand it to be ἐγώ εἰμι but ὁ ὢν.

          The Hebrew in Exodus 3:14 is twice in the first person.
          אהיה אשׁר אהיה

          And the LXX renders that double first person expression as in a first person - third person manner.
          ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὢν.

          God's Name in the Hebrew through out the OT is in the third person. Who Is - meaning the Self-Existent. Translated typically in the LXX as Κύριος.
          What precisely do you mean by that, relative to the Revelation ?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
            Twice in the LXX. God is referred to as ὁ ὢν 5 times in the Revelation ! The point is that apostle John agreed with the LXX's understanding of how to render God's name. He did not understand it to be ἐγώ εἰμι but ὁ ὢν.

            What precisely do you mean by that, relative to the Revelation ?
            ". . . Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; . . . and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, . . ." -- Revelation 1:4, 5. ASV

            ". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. . . ." -- Revelation 1:8. ASV

            ". . . Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, . . ." -- Revelation 1:17-18. ASV

            ". . . Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. . . ." -- Isaiah 44:6.

            In verses 4 & 5 two persons are identified. And 8, 17-18 one is identified. With Isaiah that one is identified to be the LORD - Jehovah (ASV). Compare with Revelation 22:12-13.
            Last edited by 37818; 08-08-2016, 08:12 PM.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              ". . . Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; . . . and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, . . ." -- Revelation 1:4, 5. ASV

              ". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. . . ." -- Revelation 1:8. ASV

              ". . . Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, . . ." -- Revelation 1:17-18. ASV

              ". . . Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. . . ." -- Isaiah 44:6.

              In verses 4 & 5 two persons are identified. And 8, 17-18 one is identified. With Isaiah that one is identified to be the LORD - Jehovah (ASV). Compare with Revelation 22:12-13.
              I don't know what you're trying to get at. In verses 4 & 5 Jesus Christ is distinguished from the one who is called ὁ ὢν --



              4Ἰωάνης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ Πνευμάτων ἃ ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου αὐτοῦ, 5καὶ ἀπὸ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ μάρτυς ὁ πιστός, ὁ πρωτότοκος τῶν νεκρῶν καὶ ὁ ἄρχων τῶν βασιλέων τῆς γῆς. Τῷ ἀγαπῶντι ἡμᾶς καὶ λύσαντι ἡμᾶς ἐκ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν ἐν τῷ αἵματι αὐτοῦ, 6καὶ ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν, ἱερεῖς τῷ Θεῷ καὶ Πατρὶ αὐτοῦ, αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων· ἀμήν.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                I don't know what you're trying to get at. In verses 4 & 5 Jesus Christ is distinguished from the one who is called ὁ ὢν --
                Yes.

                But in verses following is also identifed as the LORD God. Revelation 1;8, 11, 17-19; 22:12-13. Cross reference Isaiah 44:6.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Yes.

                  But in verses following is also identifed as the LORD God. Revelation 1;8, 11, 17-19; 22:12-13. Cross reference Isaiah 44:6.
                  This is a separate issue, which is not really relevant to this thread. Though I would argue that none of the verses you enlist prove your point. I will just take the first of your verses as an example:

                  Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ Παντοκράτωρ.
                  This is a reference to the Father, not Jesus IMHO. At best it is a debatable reference to Christ as "God," so that even trinitarian expositors are divided on the issue. So it does not reach the level of a "proof" text. Here's the Expositor's Greek Testament:

                  Revelation 1:8. Only here and in Revelation 21:5 f. is God introduced as the speaker, in the Apocalypse. The advent of the Christ, which marks the end of the age, is brought about by God, who overrules (παντοκράτωρ always of God in Apocalypse, otherwise the first part of the title might have suggested Christ) even the anomalies and contradictions of history for this providential climax. Here's Expositor's Greek Testament for example:
                  etc..

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                    Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ Παντοκράτωρ.
                    This is a reference to the Father, not Jesus IMHO. At best it is a debatable reference to Christ as "God," so that even trinitarian expositors are divided on the issue. So it does not reach the level of a "proof" text. Here's the Expositor's Greek Testament:

                    etc..
                    ". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. . . ." v.8

                    ". . . I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, . . ." v.18
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      ". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. . . ." v.8

                      ". . . I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, . . ." v.18
                      But Jesus is not called ὁ ὢν in this verse. Also "the alpha and the omega" is a different title than "the first and the last." Jesus is not called the former ( "the alpha and the omega.")

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                        But Jesus is not called ὁ ὢν in this verse. Also "the alpha and the omega" is a different title than "the first and the last." Jesus is not called the former ( "the alpha and the omega.")

                        ". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . ." -- Revealtion 22:13. (compare Isaiah 44:6.)
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post

                          ". . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . ." -- Revealtion 22:13. (compare Isaiah 44:6.)
                          In this verse there are at least three possible candidates for speaker:

                          (1) The Angel speaking for God.
                          (2) God himself in soliloquy .
                          (3) Jesus Christ.

                          Option 3 is the least likely on account of the fact that in the Revelation the phrase Alpha and the Omega is never predicated to Christ prior to Rev. 22:13 or after. Only God is indisputably referred to with this title in the Revelation prior to Rev. 22:13.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                            In this verse there are at least three possible candidates for speaker:

                            (1) The Angel speaking for God.
                            (2) God himself in soliloquy .
                            (3) Jesus Christ.

                            Option 3 is the least likely on account of the fact that in the Revelation the phrase Alpha and the Omega is never predicated to Christ prior to Rev. 22:13 or after. Only God is indisputably referred to with this title in the Revelation prior to Rev. 22:13.
                            There is only one "the first and the last." Which is identifed as the "alpha and omega" and "the beginning and the end." (compare Revelation 1:8 and 1:17-18.)
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              There is only one "the first and the last." Which is identifed as the "alpha and omega" and "the beginning and the end." (compare Revelation 1:8 and 1:17-18.)
                              For starters, in Rev. 1:8 it's not Christ but the Father who is identified as τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ.. Look at the Greek:



                              4Ἰωάνης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ Πνευμάτων ἃ ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου αὐτοῦ, 5καὶ ἀπὸ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ μάρτυς ὁ πιστός, ὁ πρωτότοκος τῶν νεκρῶν καὶ ὁ ἄρχων τῶν βασιλέων τῆς γῆς. Τῷ ἀγαπῶντι ἡμᾶς καὶ λύσαντι ἡμᾶς ἐκ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν ἐν τῷ αἵματι αὐτοῦ, 6καὶ ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν, ἱερεῖς τῷ Θεῷ καὶ Πατρὶ αὐτοῦ, αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων· ἀμήν.

                              7Ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται μετὰ τῶν νεφελῶν, καὶ ὄψεται αὐτὸν πᾶς ὀφθαλμὸς καὶ οἵτινες αὐτὸν ἐξεκέντησαν, καὶ κόψονται ἐπ’ αὐτὸν πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς. ναί, ἀμήν.

                              8Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ Παντοκράτωρ.
                              You see the expression (three titles to be specific) in red above (in verse 4) ? It identifies the Father. We know this because the one given these titles is distinguished from the Seven Spirits and from Jesus Christ. Now in verse 8 we have the same expression (underlined red), that's our cue that this is the Father back in focus. We also have additional titles like ὁ Θεός and ὁ Παντοκράτωρ which always belong to the Father. Here is a Trinitarian resource:



                              Expositor's Greek Testament

                              Revelation 1:8. Only here and in Revelation 21:5 f. is God introduced as the speaker, in the Apocalypse. The advent of the Christ, which marks the end of the age, is brought about by God, who overrules (παντοκράτωρ always of God in Apocalypse, otherwise the first part of the title might have suggested Christ) even the anomalies and contradictions of history for this providential climax.
                              At best, Trinitarians are divided on this issue. See here:

                              Benson Commentary

                              Revelation 1:8. I am Alpha and Omega, saith the Lord — Alpha is the first, Omega the last letter in the Greek alphabet. Let his enemies boast and rage ever so much in the intermediate time, yet he is both the Alpha, or beginning, and the Omega, or end, of all things. Grotius and Bengelius read, λεγει Κυριος ο θεος, saith the Lord God a reading with which the Vulgate accords, having, it seems, understood the verse as spoken by the Father. Accordingly Bengelius’s note is, “God is the beginning, as he is the Author and Creator of all things, and as he proposes, declares, and promises such great things. He is the end, as he brings all the things which are here revealed to a complete and glorious conclusion. Again, the beginning and end of a thing is, in Scripture, styled the whole thing. Therefore, God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end; that is, one who is all things, and always the same.” See Wesley. It will, however, as Doddridge observes, be difficult to give sufficient proof that the words of this verse were spoken by the Father. “Most of the phrases which are here used concerning this glorious Person, are afterward used concerning our Lord Jesus Christ; and παντοκρατωρ, almighty, though in ecclesiastical writers of the earliest ages it is generally appropriated to the Father, may, according to the Syriac version, be rendered, He who holds; that is, superintends, supports, and governs all; and then it is applied to Christ, Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3. But if, after all, the words should be understood as spoken by the Father, our Lord’s applying so many of these titles afterward to himself, plainly proves his partaking with the Father in the glory peculiar to the divine nature, and incommunicable to any creature.” See Bishop Pearson on the Creed, p. 175.
                              etc.

                              Comment

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