In the same manner as Leonhard's thread from 2014 on if one can be convinced of the existence of God, I'm curious as to what it would take for the theists on here to be convinced of the wrongness of their religion or the nonexistence of God. I eventually decided Christianity was false, and I'm sure others on here have changed their views as well, so I'm curious of your opinions.
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Could you believe that your current religion is wrong?
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Could you believe that your current religion is wrong?
24Yes83.33%20No16.67%4Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.
"Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham
"We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott CardTags: None
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The natural answer is if I became persuaded that Jesus did not exist or did not rise from the dead but I do not know what would convince me of these things beyond a shadow of a doubt. It is not as if we could unearth video footage of the apostles discussing having made the whole thing up, or unearth the bones of Jesus or anything like that.
Miracles in the context of the Christian religion that we even see today give me reason to give Christianity the benefit of the doubt even when new theories come along."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Paul stated in I Corinthians 15:13-14 that
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, athen not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
He reiterated that a couple verses later at 15:17
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile
I tend to agree with him here.
It is also the reason that Gary and Rinestone Cowboy fitfully flailed like they did at this.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThe natural answer is if I became persuaded that Jesus did not exist or did not rise from the dead but I do not know what would convince me of these things beyond a shadow of a doubt. It is not as if we could unearth video footage of the apostles discussing having made the whole thing up, or unearth the bones of Jesus or anything like that.
Miracles in the context of the Christian religion that we even see today give me reason to give Christianity the benefit of the doubt even when new theories come along.
What are miracles in the context of the Christian religion and what do you mean by "when new theories come along"?
If Christianity promises miracles to secure a believer's epistemic confidence, I'd like to know. Seer once claimed he saw a fern floating in the sky when he asked God for a sign, which seemed kind of prosaic and counterintuitive to me.
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Theoretically I could change my position, but since I have examined it and experienced it for over 40 years the real practical answer is no (in spite of the yes answer to the poll). In my early 30s I changed my position from skeptical agnostic to Christian. I can not in practice, as I indicated above, imagine what might cause me to change again. The arguments, as 06 pointed out are thus far pretty weak.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by whag View PostWhat are miracles in the context of the Christian religion and what do you mean by "when new theories come along"?
If Christianity promises miracles to secure a believer's epistemic confidence, I'd like to know. Seer once claimed he saw a fern floating in the sky when he asked God for a sign, which seemed kind of prosaic and counterintuitive to me.
I don't think miracles are promised or even intended for the purpose of convincing people of Christianity. What I am saying is: I am aware of enough miracle claims by Christians whom I consider to be credible that I personally find this as a boost to my faith. I do not expect this to have any convincing effect on anybody else."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostPaul stated in I Corinthians 15:13-14 that
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, athen not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
He reiterated that a couple verses later at 15:17
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile
I tend to agree with him here.
It is also the reason that Gary and Rinestone Cowboy fitfully flailed like they did at this.
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There is no question that my beliefs could possibly be wrong as with everybody's belief. First, consider the fallibility of human judgement concerning the nature of subjective and anecdotal beliefs and assumptions that are required to believe in God(s) and religion. second, the big problem that supports a skepticism of ones own beliefs is the fact that there are many diverse and conflicting beliefs throughout history where people believe they are absolutely certain that their belief is absolutely true and they could not be wrong, and of course the alternatives are indeed wrong. Third, many if not most ancient beliefs are based on claims clearly based on ancient mythology and the miraculous, which are very questionable foundations of beliefs that that are considered unquestionable. This does not conclude that ancient traditions, mythology and the miraculous, and history cannot be apart of belief systems, but to consider them a factual basis of a belief system is very questionable.
There is abundant evidence that the cultural and personal need of a 'sense of belonging' is a primary motive of justifying ones belief system and not a more detached search for the knowledge of the nature of belief, and different belief systems.
Considering the obvious diversity and conflicting beliefs in the history of humanity, everybody is most likely to be in some way wrong. The sciences remains the knowledge that is based on a constantly evolving objective view of the nature of our existence. In contrast the beliefs, doctrines and dogma of most ancient religions does not significantly change with time.Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-10-2016, 07:05 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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No.
I know that I know that my God is real. I can't convince anyone of that fact, because it is the Holy Spirit's job to do so, but He has made Himself known to me in a very real personal way, so there is no way I would change my mind. Sorry if you don't understand that, but blessed assurance is a wonderful thing in my mind.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Possible but highly unlikely. I am more than willing to change my mind on something given further evidence, and have done so in the past. Between having examined the underpinnings of my faith on multiple occasions and only come away stronger and experienced the miraculous (as well as having heard multiple independent attestations of other miracles), there's just not much chance of it occurring. And having seen the lives of others who deconverted, I really don't want to go there either.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo, that doesn't really answer the question posed. You're just confirming your belief in the bible, in your religion. I think the question is if it is even possible for your mind to be changed?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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The question is phrased, "Is it possible for you to change your mind about your religion?" and my answer is that it is absolutely possible, at least theoretically. For instance, if there was compelling evidence that the gospel narrative was false then I could see myself changing my mind about it, but that would be an uphill battle considering the overwhelming evidence in favor of Christianity.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI guess you missed that I agree with Paul in that if it can be shown that the resurrection didn't happen then our "faith is in vain." It is just that all attempts to do so have fallen flat.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI guess you missed that I agree with Paul in that if it can be shown that the resurrection didn't happen then our "faith is in vain." It is just that all attempts to do so have fallen flat.Last edited by JimL; 08-10-2016, 06:16 PM.
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