Returning to my Father's House

[barnasha]

Asalamu'Alaikum Barnasha

You wrote :

Yes, now here comes the complicated trinity stuff...


Is it untrue , if it seems complicated to you ?

it is not true nor untrue.

It is true that it is not what Jesus taught.

Jesus worshiped the god of Abraham like all the others of his time and culture, like Moses who came before him.

But your god is sometimes that god or sometimes Jesus or sometimes a combination of the two...

it is very unclear and requires a lot of 'philosophical reasoning' and lack of clarity in speech.

If you want to say your god is the trinity and includes Jesus that is fine, but when you start to use it to refer to the trinity and the individual parts of the trinity, your statements will be unclear and perhaps illogical outside of the framework of your own doctrines, something you cannot impose on any conversation without making it clear - if you want to clearly communicate your ideas.

You wrote :

sometimes Jesus is god, sometimes his god is god...

It might seem that way to you , nonetheless Jesus is our GOD in human form and His Father is His God .

yes, but not mine.

I worship Jesus's god, like he taught us

I worship Abraham's god and understand his revelation and use his story.

To you your way and me mine, but don't tell me what my way is..

By way of analogy , I could say that The light of the Sun , is part of the sun

God is not his creation. The sun is not the light which it emits.

One could even say that the light of the sun , is the sun

no, they are interdependent, not identical. if they were identical we would not refer to them as different

. That's why if you look out your window in the morning and see a lot of light , you might say " It's a SUNNY day ! " .." There's a lot of sun ! " ... However , the light of the sun is actually a dependent reality , an effect of processes within the mass or actual SUN .

dependent, not identical

The "true sun " is very far away and immense in size . On account of this , it uses what it generates within it self , to reach us :

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the uniquely generated Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

The mass of the SUN , that which is out there 8 million miles away , is the TRUE SUN . This "TRUE SUN" can not be seen , all you will ever see , is it's light . There is no way for you to see the actual SUN , or even begin to approach it . It is enveloped in light , and the closer you get to it , the more consuming and unbearable it becomes . You can not bear the TRUE Presence of the SUN . Nonetheless , the SUN reaches out to us , through it's light .

Jesus is the light , and the Father is that which is hidden behind the light .

yes but we don't worship Jesus as part of his god

we worship his god

you are free to differ, but don't assume everyone should be like you

Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Psa 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.

You wrote :

A concept of "God the Son" or "God the Father" is extra-biblical.

It's very biblical . If you don't want to see it , oh well .

what, am I, someone who has studied the texts, supposed to simply take your word for it?

"it's true but you don't see it" is not a very good argument, is it?

You wrote :

..And of course not part of Jesus's teachings either.

Yes it is ...

You wrote :

psalm 82:6

That passage doesn't say , all human beings are his sons . Read it again , in context .

You wrote :
..that says son not son of God.

It says :

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the

Father which hath sent him.

Who's Son ? Son of his .....Father ? How clearer can that be ? Jesus likewise said :

it's clear that it does not say God has an internal biological or filial hierarchy. It is a simple allegory of fathers and sons. The english translators added the capital letters.

Jesus used 'father' as an allegory to god. A son can be sent on behalf of his father.

it should read:

Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the son, even as they honour the father. He that honoureth not the son honoureth not the father.

It took more than flesh and blood to reveal to Peter that Jesus was much more than just a mere man . He was a man , and much more ..He was the Son of the living God . Only the Father could reveal that to Peter and I pray he will reveal that to you soon .

(1) Who taught you that this is what was revealed to Peter?

(2) What does Peter have to do with anything?

You wrote :

the son of God does not mean 'the only son of God'.John 3:16says that in the English translations, but the Greek doesn't have that meaning, according to Greek scholars.

He is the only son of God , of his kind . This is why he is monogenes , uniquely generated :

Yes, but "Monogenes" means one of a kind. One may have 10 sons, all of which are one-of-a-kind.

MONO-Genes ( Unique in generation ) . There is no SON like Him.

correct - not "the only begotten son"

You wrote :

no, Jesus said only God could do that, and God worked through him , he never said "I have the power", he said, God has the power.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Jesus receives all of His authority and power from the Father , hence He has all of these qualities and attributes , within HIMSELF. Jesus is just not a conduit , but an actual source of life , thanks to the Father who made Him a source of life , for us .

The Father is what Jesus worshiped. Jesus is a human, "a son of man", the son of Mary.


OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE THY *NAME*

THY KINGDOM...


etc.



Unfortunately your programming (the need to coincide with the teachings of a particular organization, for what reason, I do not know) does not allow you to easily deal in the very simple realty directly.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father . If you do not believe this , then believe it for "the very works sake" , in virtue of the authority and power of His Name , the healing miracles the casting out of demons .etc

Whatsoever you shall ask in His name , that HE SHALL DO . Jesus shall do it . In verse 14 it continues saying : If ye shall ask anything in my name I WILL DO IT . " I WILL " . So , the Father GOD , grants His SON all power and authority , Jesus isn't a mere conduit without power or authority .

Moreover , It is the Father's will that you exalt the son , and worship Him . If you don't , then you don't have the Father . You can claim to "only worship the father" , but if you don't give His Son the proper place in your life , then you wont have access to the Father .

you are taking a father/son allegory and saying the father includes the son

well my friend, I can turn that back around on you.

a father is not his son.

one must honor the son of a father, if the father has two sons, one must honor them both

but my father who is in heaven is not the son whom he has sent.

It's as if you stay in your house all day , with the curtains closed and only use artificial light or walk around in darkness . You want to approach the SUN your way , so you have an artificial plastic "sun" lamp in your living room , with a little light bulb , and on account of that you think you are close to the sun . You're getting your Vitamine D .

Well , you're not .


Joh 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

If you want to see the real sun , you're going to have to accept it's real light into your room ( " the light of this world " - Jesus ) . You need to open the window and let the Sun-light in , then you will be close to the sun . Even if the sun is far away , floating in space , you will still be close to the sun , thanks to it's light :

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


You wrote :

you will assuredly blend that into whatever trinity doctrine your organization ascriibes to.

I see ...

You wrote :

if you truly believed what you believed, if everyone changed the trinity slightly in 100 years, you would not change.

OK ....

You wrote :

..but because you base your knowledge of the doctrines of others...


God isnt a doctrine , he's God . Father , Son and Holy Spirit ...Amen-Haleluyah .

a god is a god. You capitalize the letter and it refers to a specific god.

I see that you are insecure enough in your views to need to recite them publically.

I only "reprove" you to make you stronger, unfortunately you probably do not realize it.

You wrote :

...you will always miss the mark, because as they err, so will you.

Why do you assume that those who affirm the divinity of Jesus Christ have erred ? What do you have that is better than Jesus Christ , our Lord and Savior ? Do you have a better way than The Way of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit ?

Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

You wrote :

..and more importantly, your knowledge is the knowledge of men, not the knowledge of God.

Really ?..And I suppose your knowledge is the "knowledge of God " ? If you don't have Jesus Christ in your life , as your Lord and Savior , as your EVERYTHING then it is you who are ignorant and dead spiritually . Dark as night is your soul without Jesus .

come on, what kind of nonsense argument is that?

If you don't have Tony the Tiger in your life, you are dead spiritually!

blah blah blah blah

At least when Paul said it, he had some meaning there, you are just reciting some common Christian verbage to feel all holy inside.

I do not need to fake it like that.

Neither did Master Joshua, son of Mary worshiper of God and teacher of the Torah ..........

You wrote :

yes, he is the unique son of god just like you are a unique son of god.

Maybe according to your personal theology or "organization" , everyone is a "unique son of God" , but this isn't biblical .

You might be a son of the god of this world , the devil . But as far as being a son of the Most High Living God , you are not if you reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior .

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


You wrote :

Why do you think being a man is 'mere'?

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man , in whom there is no salvation .
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Mere men die and their thoughts perish with them . Jesus however , the unique man and Son of God , died and rose again after three days :

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body

It is only through the unique son of God and Son of Man , that you will inherit eternal life .

Your name must be written on the lamb's book of life :

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

You wrote :

..maybe you deify the rabbi,,,

I don't deify rabbis . Jesus the Rabbi of Rabbis and Lord of lords is deity on account of being monogenes , the uniquely generated SON of the Father . What I think is irrelevant , it's what the bible says and what God's Spirit has taught me .

but you said Jesus is part of your god

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

You wrote :

...because you do not appreciate what it means to be human.


If I didn't appreciate " what it means to be human " , I would continue resisting the Holy Spirit and remain in my sin and ignorance ( intellictual arrogance ) . We must invite Jesus into our humanity , in order to truly live out the full potential of our humanity .

Here is a book on the full potential of our humanity :

Theosis :

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/theosis.aspx


You wrote :

\but i know that is not true. you just say whatever you are 'supposed to say' as a 'christian'
if other people see you as being pious you will feel pious that was the pharisees' problem though, wasn't it.........................

I am simply defending the truth . God is Father , Son and Holy Spirit ...... FATHER : GOD ABOVE ( MASS ) , SON: GOD WITH US ( LIGHT OF THE WORLD - EMANUEL ) , HOLY SPIRIT : GOD WITHIN US ( HEAT , WARMTH , THAT WHICH IS FELT RATHER THAN SEEN ) .

Look, if you're not insecure in your views as to what your god is, you don't need to 'stick up for them' like you do. It shows that subconsciously you are still having a dialogue and needing to fortify the DOGMA which you have accepted because you really intend to accept it in the fiber of your being but you don't understand it 100% (nobody can since it involves centuries of Christian history which follow the ministry of Jesus).

I have met some christians, even ones who subscribe to the trinity, who do understand it very clearly and speak very accurately, but most just recite the pseudo-theological babble and defend things so tightly, it seems as if they are afraid of losing grip on something they never really had.

You wrote :

heed my earlier advice ..

No thank you , I'll rather follow the advice of the Holy Ghost . Amen .

God Bless you ..

Maranatha
bro.john

a very pompous response from an assuredly not so pompous man.

[Ibn Abu Talib]

Asalamu'Alaikum Ibn

You wrote :

Right. So why did you assume the miracle you witnessed was of Divine origin?

I believe it's a reasonable conclusion , in light of the fact that :

# 1 : The miracle came about as a result of much prayer and supplication to God ( not the devil ) ...

# 2 : The fruits of the miracle included , a strengthening of our faith in God and a resolve to live for Him .

# 3 : The extraordinary nature of the miracle ( a creative miracle ) .

# 4 : The unlikelihood that a loving and compassionate God , would heal a person's physical infirmity in such a miraculous way , with the intention to sow confusion and reinforce false beliefs that lead to hell .

# 5 : The fact that I witnessed the individual that received the healing , in his infirmed state , before the miracle .

# 6 : The fact that I witnessed , saw and touched with my finger , the results of the miracle .

# 7 : The fact that there was really no motive for fraud ..( No one had any money , We weren't in a personality cult ... I knew the individual that received the miracle before and after the miracle and can safely say that the person I meet and came to know , was a sincere and good hearted man , who became a devout Christian . He was clearly not a charlatan or con man .)

# 8 The fact that God's Holy Spirit bore witness to my spirit that this was indeed true .

If this so called miracle was as awe inspiring as you put it out to be, then you would not have converted to Islam in the first place. The fact that you did shows you did not consider it authentic, at least initially. Moreover, if the guy who performed this "extraordinary" feat was genuine, why doesn't he work in hospitals that accommodate many people who are in desperate need for a miracle?

Given the stupidity of your testimony, it is hard to take you seriously.

It implies what it clearly implies . If you were unable to comprehend it the first time , maybe reading it a second time will allow you to see the implications :

He was "bewildered" by the extraordinary anomaly but unaware of it's cause . If he would have been aware of who was speaking to him in the cave , he wouldn't have needed Waraqah or anyone else to tell him " It was Gabriel ! " ...


There would have been no need for Waraqah to inform him of who it was that came in contact with him . He was clearly "bewildered" ( confused ) , due to his lack of awareness and knowledge
of the situation ( lack of certainty as to whether it was a demon , angel .etc he simply didn't know .. ) .

In other words, you believe Muhammad(saw) was deceived by Satan, right?

For example , just because you can't be absolutely certain that your tea cup is there in front of you on the table , doesn't imply that your sense of sight is highly imperfect . Your sight is functioning according to it's original deign , however you can never be absolutely certain that what you are sensing outside of you , is absolutely there .

If we can't be certain, then our senses are a poor conveyor of knowledge. Do you agree?

You might tell me " I love my son " . Really ? Prove it to me ! You might respond : " I work sixteen hours a day to give him a good life , education , health insurance .etc There is nothing I wouldn't do for my son .. I would jump into a tiger's mouth for him ! .."

None of the above is absolute proof that you love him . Maybe you are just saying that you work sixteen hours a day because you love your son , but in reality , you work like that because you are a workaholic . You love your job , because it's rewarding and exciting . It pays well , and you are saving money for your retirement and likewise to eventually buy ..X Y & Z , for yourself .

I can always find several reasons why you are doing what you are doing , for reasons other than "love" .

That's irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the senses.

I agree , that obeying God's will may lead to experiencing a sense of bliss . However , the greatest good is not the experience of bliss , but communing with the source of bliss .

In Islam , the emphasis is in doing to receive a reward from God in paradise . In Christianity , the emphasis is in being to become more like God , in order to commune with Him ( The Greatest good ) .

Communion can only take place if our essence is changed. As I will demonstrate later, this concept is faulty.

Jesus wants you to become his disciple , his prophet , and go out and destroy the works of Satan . If people are conditioned to think that the last prophet came 1400 years ago , then Satan will have it good and comfortable . He can work with ease and sit back and rest ..

Sure, Satan enjoys it when people forbid what is wrong and enjoin what is right.

I believe Jesus is going to raise a prophet in Bangladesh soon . Amen .

Did he tell you that?

Yes , the text does have some inconsistencies in it , however the text is more than sufficient in conveying the gospel ( good news of Jesus ) and everything we need to know about God and how we should live .

Wrong. The Gospels show an evolution in the image and teachings of Jesus. Such is reflective of theological corruption. If you are a sincere pursuer of truth, then you will watch the following debate between Shabir Ally and Dr.James White on the topic "Is the New Testament as we have it today the inspired Word of God?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT_yGgPYuZA

More , keep in mind that the Torah that was given to Moses, and the Gospel that was given to Jesus, are the scriptures that the Jews and Christians had at the time of Muhammad and still possess today :
The Quran claims that the Torah and Gospel IS WITH US .

If that's true, then you have to admit that the Gospel and Torah contain prophecies of Muhammad(saw) which resulted in the conversion of some of the People of the Book contemporary to Muhammad(saw)'s time.

There is no way for you to relate to the source , without relating to what it produces . It's like saying that you are somehow going to approach the Sun , without approaching it's light and energies . There is no way to do that .

I agree. The product of the source is not God, though. If that were the case, we'd have two gods.

If you do not honour the Son , you do not honour the Father who sent Him . If you do not recognize the LIGHT of the SUN , then you will not recognize the SUN . Without the LIGHT ( the SON ) , you will never have any access to the SUN ( The Father ).

Likewise, if I do not worship the creation, I don't worship the Creator. Do you agree?

Well Ponder . What is the most magnificent and prominent sign within nature ? Is it not the SUN ?

Nah!

Really ? When water proceeds from my water hose , the water came into being as a consequence of it's proceeding ? Why can't the water BE , before it proceeds

The procession of the water is an act that is brought about, hence, it involves a beginning. Beginning is only associated with creation for anything that does not begin to exist is uncreated, and only God is uncreated. Since our actions have beginnings, then our actions are also creations. As God is the only Creator, then He is the one who creates our actions.

Are you ready to apply such generation , to Allah ? Allah , in one form or another , thinks . How does he think ? I don't know . I can't say for sure that he thinks , as I think or that his thoughts are like my thoughts . Should we logically assume that there was a time when Allah , didn't exist ? Didn't think ?

He didn't exist , with thoughts . The Quran says that Allah dislikes divorce . Why ? He must not think to highly about "divorce " , right ? He is a thinking GOD ! When was the first thought generated ? Before the first thought of Allah was generated , there were no thoughts .

There is no beginning or end to Allah.

So , when I use words like "generation " and " procession" , it doesn't imply that something is proceeding from space and time , and has a beginning .

Then its a contradiction. It is akin to asking the question "What was before time?"

To worship any of the persons of the deity , is to worship the deity , source and all . It's like saying , if you worship the light of the SUN , you are worshiping the SUN . The only way the absolute source reaches out to you , is through His Son .To honour , exalt and fix your faith on the SON , is to honour , exalt and fix your faith on the Father . You are worshiping the
Father , when you worship HIS Son , His Light .

That's called the fallacy of composition.

"Change" only involves creation ?

Yes. As I explained above, anything that has a beginning is created. Since the Son and the Holy Spirit generate from the same source, they are, therefore, created.

So I guess then that Allah will never forgive you for your sins ? If you do something haram and later pray for forgiveness , you will have to remain a "potential" recipient of Allah's forgiveness , not an "actual" recipient . Allah doesn't "change" , if he is displeased , he remains displeased .

Well , the truth is that , as far as His nature , his character , Allah never changes . However , there is no reason to assume that there isn't some sort of change in the unseen , or eternal realms .

Allahu Akbar Laytha Ka Mithli Shaayy.

More over , the above illustration of the SUN , is simply pointing to something beyond it self . Do you believe that Allah has eyes , hands and feet or sits upon a throne ? Would it be inappropriate to say that Allah descends from his throne to hear the prayers of his servants ? These are mere illustrations or analogies , which point to a reality , beyond themselves .
A mere representation . Why don't you apply your criticism , evenly across the board and dismiss these illustrations as inappropriate ?

I already responded to that, in addition to providing a link . Did you see it?

In the Quran we are told that Allah's ability to turn a lifeless desert into a fertile land , is a sign of resurrection . Well , how does the turning of a desert land to a fertile land , compare to creating you and me from the dust ? One is a natural process , that can come about through climate change , the migration of certain plants and animals into an area .etc And the other is an entirely supernatural , miraculous event , that has nothing to do with restoring top soil , growing new plants .etc

There is no such thing as nature. Allah regulates everything.

Mass , Light and Heat , ONE SUN . Father , Son and Holy Spirit , ONE GOD .

You just affirmed what I said earlier-that God in Christianity is a collective term for three entities. Hence, "God" is merely a a property exhibited by the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. This is also the view defended by Dr. William Lane Craig, one of the greatest Christian apologists of our time.

Right , I am aware of that . Why do you object to our use of physical terms to express spiritual truths , yet find no objection to describing Allah's presence and actions using the same terms ? Saying that Allah is closer than a juggler vein , is describing God's proximity to us in terms of physicality , in relation to a juggler .

This likewise applies to the references of Allah coming down from His thrown , "descending" to hear the prayers of believers . Descending implies space , and even time . How does a non-physical , non-local being descend from HERE to THERE ? There is no HERE OR THERE , in eternity right ? If there is , then is Allah's throne empty when he descends ?

Nonsense isn't it ? I agree , but unfortunately , for some reason you hold us Christians to a higher standard of expression and language . We can't describe Allah and His actions using such terms , without being accused of "false analogy".

I already answered this.

Regardless , we are taking the way we are "one in essence , but not in entities" and assuming that "oneness of essence and entities " is the same within a non-local , timeless dimension . Within divinity .

It's like saying : When I am present in person , I am physically here and not there , hence ..If God is present here in person , he can't be here and there . Why ? Because I can't be here and there .

Well , excuse me ? Maybe you can't be present here and there , but that doesn't apply to God or even to other spirit beings . You have absolutely no idea , if they have such limitations in their world .

Once again, you are attacking a straw man.

I agree , Tawheed makes more sense than a "polytheistic Trinity " . Christians affirm genuine Tawheed , with all of it's complexities . Our God is One , yet He is likewise complex in His nature ( Monotheistic Triunity ) . We accept Him as He is , and we don't reduce His Oneness to something it is not , as Muslims and Rabbinical Jews do .

The Christian concept reduces God to a property which is embodied in three entities. This is no different from the color red as seen in red objects.

You likened the "essence" to an independent reality , existing in it's own right , apart from the Father , Son and Holy Spirit . This is not the Orthodox view of the Trinity . It would be more accurate to say that the Father is the Essence , on account of being the fountainhead of the Godhead , and the Son and Holy Spirit receive their divine nature from the Father .

If so, then the Son and Holy Spirit equals the Father.

The Western conception of the Trinity tends to make the essence as an independent reality , from the persons . This is true . However in Eastern Christianity , which I believe has a fuller understanding and definition of the Trinity , the Father is the ultimate source of everything .

Both are loaded with absurdities.

No , to say that we the believers are one , in God , doesn't imply that we are all one person , literally INSIDE God ..( His belly ? No . We are deified by God in the sense that , our present nature doesn't allow us to commune with Him , in the most intimate or meaningful way possible . We are far from our potential , in as far as our relationship with God .

The reason this is so , is due to our fallen or weak nature . So , deification or "Theosis" ( The term used by the Church Fathers ) , refers to a process where our nature becomes more and more angelic , or like God's . Do we become God ? No , God is God .

It's like for example , you and I are now made of paper . We can't approach the fire place now , because if we do , we will be consumed by the fire . We will die . So , the only way for us to approach this reality , which will consume us if we try to get close to it , is by having our nature changed to a substance that will allow us to interact with the fire .

I used the illustration in the last post of a piece of iron in the fire . If you throw a piece of iron in a fire , it starts to get red hot , like the fire . It starts to resemble the fire , it has come in contact with . Does this mean that the piece of iron is now fire ? No , but it has been " Fire-ized " ( will be in english dictionaries soon ) . It resembles , it behaves somewhat like fire . It burns like fire , but it's fire , it's been "fire-ized" .

If we will be sharing the same essence as the three persons, and they are god by virtue of their substance, then, necessarily, we, too, will become God. Give me a straight answer. Will we share the same Divinity?

The Muslims say " None shall enter Paradise unless he a Muslim .Those are their vain desires.Say , "produce your proof if you are truthful" .

You bore witness to the truth yourself, even starting a thread on the Love of Allah, and yet, you had the audacity to imply that Allah was non-loving. Truly, you are just as Satanic as you are delusional.

[smaneck]

I'm attracted to the Eastern Orthodox Church , and it's worship . It's liturgy . I really like it when there aren't any pews and you need to stand , and prostrate .etc and I likewise like the Pentecostals . Weird ha ? I'm an Eastern Orthodox Pentecostal

LOL, it is an interesting combination. But I think you will find the Orthodox Church to be a much richer and deeper form of Christianity than what passes for Evangelical in the United States. Start reading the early church fathers.

warmest, Susan

[smaneck]

But it is also something which could not be done once and never again as in Christianity. If it is indeed grounded in God's determination to reach us, instead of satisfying some abstract requirements of the Divine Essence , then it would happen again and again.


Reducing requirements to abstractions ? Why ? ....What do you mean by "abstract requirements " ?

Dear John,

By abstract requirements I mean this notion that God's justice, rightousness and holiness must be satsified before He can show mercy.

Does Adam and Eve need to sin , again and again , for the cosmos , humanity , to experience the effects of what they did ?

We sort of took that job on ourselves. ;-}

I don't really get what you are saying here with "again and again" ..I have an idea , but maybe I'm not grasping what you are saying , so please clarify .

I'm looking at this more or less from a Shi'ite perspective and the meaning they assign to the martyrdom of the Imam Husayn. It seems to me this pretty much the same thing as happened to Jesus. I'm also thinking of Baha'u'llah's words here:

That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be 76 demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Husayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muhammad, the Apostle of God.

No man can ever claim to have comprehended the nature of the hidden and manifold grace of God; none can fathom His all-embracing mercy. Such hath been the perversity of men and their transgressions, so grievous have been the trials that have afflicted the Prophets of God and their chosen ones, that all mankind deserveth to be tormented and to perish. God's hidden and most loving providence, however, hath, through both visible and invisible agencies, protected and will continue to protect it from the penalty of its wickedness. Ponder this in thine heart, that the truth may be revealed unto thee, and be thou steadfast in His path.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 75)

I think that is pretty consistent with what your Jewish rabbis are saying as well.

So are you saying that to believe that God possesses a personal sense of mercy and justice is reducing God to an impersonal "pure essence" ????

No, no. I'm saying that it seems to me that what Christians have done in working out this economy of salvation is to apply *Greek* categories of justice and mercy which are not at all personal.

warmest, Susan

[smaneck]

In Islam , the emphasis is in doing to receive a reward from God in paradise . In Christianity , the emphasis is in being to become more like God , in order to commune with Him ( The Greatest good ) .

Dear John,

Funny you should say that, because it is always been my impression that evangelical Christianity was all about fire insurance and *my* religion (the Baha'i Faith) was about acquiring the attributes of God and drawing near to Him.

Revelation comes when one knows God . It is your revelation of God , through your relationship with Him . This notion that prophethood ended 1400 years ago and that there is no more revelation , is exactly what satan wants you to believe Jesus wants you to become his disciple , his prophet , and go out and destroy the works of Satan .

I would agree that there are all kinds of problems with taking the current Muslim position that the Hand of God is tied up, but there are problems with imagining that virtually any believer can be a prophet as well. Christian gnosticism has a lot of commonalities with the charismatic or pentecostal Christianity. The reason it died out because everyone personal experience of the Holy Spirit led them in different directions and they fragmented endlessly in the absence of authority outside of themselves.

But am I understanding you correctly, that you don't necessarily deny the Prophethood of Muhammad?

I believe Jesus is going to raise a prophet in Bangladesh soon . Amen .

Now you've really peaked my interest. Tell me more. Why do you believe this?

Yes , the text does have some inconsistencies in it , however the text is more than sufficient in conveying the gospel ( good news of Jesus )

That's pretty much the Baha'i position on the Bible.

We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? . . . Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 88)

and everything we need to know about God and how we should live .

That I'm not entirely persuaded of. Certainly some of the biblical principles about how we should live are eternal but others were suited to the time and place.

warmest, Susan

[Jesus Maranatha]

Asalamu'Alaikum Ibn

You wrote :

If this so called miracle was as awe inspiring as you put it out to be, then you would not have converted to Islam in the first place. The fact that you did shows you did not consider it authentic, at least initially.

If I actually witnessed a miracle within a Christian context and considered it authentic , I shouldn't have later converted to Islam ....interesting .

You wrote :

Moreover, if the guy who performed this "extraordinary" feat was genuine, why doesn't he work in hospitals that accommodate many people who are in desperate need for a miracle? Given the stupidity of your testimony, it is hard to take you seriously.

Is that the way you cope with miracles in Christianity ? Denying them ?

If my testimony is stupid and you find it hard to take me seriously , why do you even bother responding ?

You wrote :

In other words, you believe Muhammad(saw) was deceived by Satan, right?

Seems like a question a wahabi would ask a Murtad to get him arrested or killed

You wrote :

If we can't be certain, then our senses are a poor conveyor of knowledge. Do you agree?

Nah .

You wrote :

That's irrelevant since it has nothing to do with the senses.

The five "senses" are irrelevant to the issue of whether the "objective" world is absolutely objective . You apparently don't have the sense to see that .

You wrote :

Communion can only take place if our essence is changed. As I will demonstrate later, this concept is faulty.

okydoky ...

you wrote :

Sure, Satan enjoys it when people forbid what is wrong and enjoin what is right.

I've meet more than a few long bearded , plastic sandal wearing Muslim "forbiders of wrong and enjoiners of right" , and I've never meet people so cruel , self-righteous and miserable than they . I could see how Satan enjoys their company .

You wrote :

Did he tell you that?

Yes he did , do you have a problem with that ?

You wrote :

Wrong. The Gospels show an evolution in the image and teachings of Jesus. Such is reflective of theological corruption. If you are a sincere pursuer of truth, then you will watch the following debate between Shabir Ally and Dr.James White on the topic "Is the New Testament as we have it today the inspired Word of God?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT_yGgPYuZA

If the Bible is "corrupt" , then your Quran is likewise "corrupt" . I already showed you several places in your Quran where it clearly states that Jews and Christians have the Torah and Injil with them and should refer to them . That should end the discussion as to the Bible's authenticity for Muslims , so go eat some dates .

You wrote :

If that's true, then you have to admit that the Gospel and Torah contain prophecies of Muhammad(saw) which resulted in the conversion of some of the People of the Book contemporary to Muhammad(saw)'s time.

That's the most absurd logic I've ever come accross on this forum . The Quran is yours not ours , hence if the Quran states that Jews and Christians still possess the Torah and Injil , you as a Muslim have no choice but to agree . Do you believe the Quran is the word of God ? If you do , then how can you contend that Christians don't have the Torah or Gospel , when your Quran says they do ?

As a Muslim you have to believe , that we have the Torah and Gospel , and that Muhammad is somehow foretold in the bible . YOU have to believe that .YOU.

What your Quran says is irrelevant to our Christian faith , it is however relevant TO YOU .

You wrote :

agree. The product of the source is not God, though. If that were the case, we'd have two gods.

Maybe in time and space , the "coming out" of a source has a definite space or separation between that which comes out and it's source . However , in a non-local timeless reality , that may not be the case .

The most vivid example in the physical universe of how a spiritual source might generate something "other" than it self , and yet remain ONE with it ..is that of the SUN . For argument sake , for your love of debate , you may not admit it , but the reason we often identify the light OF the sun , as SUN , is due to it's intimate connection and relationship with the mass of the SUN and the fact that it is that which reveals the SUN . In relation to us , within our human experience , it is an integral part and function of the SUN , as far as revelation , relationship , sustenance .

( The Light reveals the SUN / The Son reveals the Father , The Light touches us and hence brings us closer to the SUN / The Son touches our humanity and brings us closer to the Father , The Light sustains life upon the earth / The Son is the divine medium through which all life on earth exists ..) .

That's why we say " it's a SUNNY day ! " , " there is way to much SUN in here , please close the curtains ! " .. It's the light OF the sun , yet it is likewise SUN . Jesus is the Son OF God , yet he is likewise GOD . You don't want to see it fine , take the moon , I'll take the Sun .

You wrote :

Likewise, if I do not worship the creation, I don't worship the Creator. Do you agree?

Huh ?

The Creation is full of signs , symbols and metaphors pointing to a reality beyond it self . We don't worship the signs , symbols and metaphors , we worship the God that created them . The Sun is simply a sign , a lesson from God , revealing aspects of his attributes and intentions .

The Sun rises on the good and the bad , It provides life , to everyone without prejudice . This light symbolizes the mercy of God , his gracious nature .etc The Sun is a great sign .


You wrote :

There is no beginning or end to Allah.

Oh I know that , but you tend to apply physical , mundane limitations to God . Is he present , as we are present ? Does he produce as we produce ? Is that which seems a contradiction to us , absolutely a contradiction from God's perspective ? If yes , how do you know ?

Does God think thoughts or does he have just one continious thought ? Does God think "thoughts" (plural) that are likewise , one continous thought ( singular ) ? What makes one thought distinct from the other ( space , time , nature , meaning ..) ? When did God think his first thought ? ... We can not apply our conception of thought , singular or plural , presence , motion .etc to God .

Muslims for some reason are unable to accept that . God is ONE , ONE ..Yes He is ONE ..How is he ONE ? Can God be both a HIM and a THEM ? A WHO and an IT ? Above and Below , North , South , East and West ? Why not ? Who says so ?

You wrote :

Then its a contradiction. It is akin to asking the question "What was before time?"

The contradiction is only found in your brain .

You wrote :

That's called the fallacy of composition.

" fallacy of composition " ... ...And you're guilty of " fallacy of hasty generalization "

you wrote :

Yes. As I explained above, anything that has a beginning is created. Since the Son and the Holy Spirit generate from the same source, they are, therefore, created.

I guess your GOD doesn't generate thoughts , nor does he think . A thoughtless God perhaps ? I don't expect you to have the capacity to grasp the implications of what I just said ..maybe others will . You often miss it .

You wrote :

Allahu Akbar Laytha Ka Mithli Shaayy...


Here read it again , maybe it will sink in :

Following your silly logic .... I guess then that Allah will never forgive you of your sins . If you do something haram and later pray for forgiveness , you will have to remain a "potential" recipient of Allah's forgiveness , not an "actual" recipient . Allah doesn't "change" , hence if he is displeased , he remains displeased .

" GOD NEVER CHANGES ! " ...OK

You wrote :

There is no such thing as nature. Allah regulates everything.

He regulates through laws and constants , and these parameters are given their force through divine decree / authority / will . These constants , are what we identify as "mother nature". One of the reasons that Islam eventually failed to surpass the west in science and technology is due to this idea that there is a ghost or God behind every event and phenomena in creation . The Christian west seperated the phenomenal world from it's Creator , through nature , and recognized man's God given dominion over it .

Muslim science on the other hand , fail prey to the Al-Ghazalis and the religionist's "Allah regulates everything " ? .


You wrote :

You just affirmed what I said earlier-that God in Christianity is a collective term for three entities. Hence, "God" is merely a a property exhibited by the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. This is also the view defended by Dr. William Lane Craig, one of the greatest Christian apologists of our time.

God is not a "property" but rather One being who gives rise to beings of various kinds . You have eternal beings , immortals , mortals existing in various states and dimensions within God's Mind . The Being of beings , The thinker behind the thoughts , is the Father , and from Him arises everything , the Son and Holy Spirit , even creation it self . Chew on that if you can

You wrote :

If we will be sharing the same essence as the three persons, and they are god by virtue of their substance, then, necessarily, we, too, will become God. Give me a straight answer. Will we share the same Divinity?

We will become gods by adoption , or grace . I doubt a straight answer will help you , being that your thinking is so crooked .

You wrote :

You bore witness to the truth yourself, even starting a thread on the Love of Allah, and yet, you had the audacity to imply that Allah was non-loving.

When did I ever say he wasn't loving ?

You wrote :

Truly, you are just as Satanic as you are delusional

[Ibn Abu Talib]

If I actually witnessed a miracle within a Christian context and considered it authentic , I shouldn't have later converted to Islam ....interesting .

The problem is you did witness it in a Christian context. According to your story, the main character was a Christian who managed to pull off a miracle after much prayer and supplication to God. In addition, you were assisted by the Holy Spirit in establishing the authenticity of the event. Yet, you subsequently converted to Islam. If this is not a joke, I don't know what is.

Is that the way you cope with miracles in Christianity ? Denying them ?

That was not even an answer to my question. If this Christian guy was really a miracle worker, wouldn't he render humanity a great service by helping those who are afflicted with incurable diseases?

If my testimony is stupid and you find it hard to take me seriously , why do you even bother responding ?

To expose you for the deceiver that you are.

Seems like a question a wahabi would ask a Murtad to get him arrested or killed

I thought so. Let's see how you refute my arguments in this thread

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...d.php?t=114746

If the Bible is "corrupt" , then your Quran is likewise "corrupt" . I already showed you several places in your Quran where it clearly states that Jews and Christians have the Torah and Injil with them and should refer to them . That should end the discussion as to the Bible's authenticity for Muslims , so go eat some dates .

So you are saying the bible is true as long as the Quran says it is true?

Do you believe the Quran is the word of God ? If you do , then how can you contend that Christians don't have the Torah or Gospel , when your Quran says they do ?

Because the Quran says you people are guilty of Tahrif.

What your Quran says is irrelevant to our Christian faith

If so, why do you appeal to the Quran to prove the genuineness of the bible?

Maybe in time and space , the "coming out" of a source has a definite space or separation between that which comes out and it's source . However , in a non-local timeless reality , that may not be the case .

The most vivid example in the physical universe of how a spiritual source might generate something "other" than it self , and yet remain ONE with it ..is that of the SUN . For argument sake , for your love of debate , you may not admit it , but the reason we often identify the light OF the sun , as SUN , is due to it's intimate connection and relationship with the mass of the SUN and the fact that it is that which reveals the SUN . In relation to us , within our human experience , it is an integral part and function of the SUN , as far as revelation , relationship , sustenance .

( The Light reveals the SUN / The Son reveals the Father , The Light touches us and hence brings us closer to the SUN / The Son touches our humanity and brings us closer to the Father , The Light sustains life upon the earth / The Son is the divine medium through which all life on earth exists ..) .

That's why we say " it's a SUNNY day ! " , " there is way to much SUN in here , please close the curtains ! " .. It's the light OF the sun , yet it is likewise SUN . Jesus is the Son OF God , yet he is likewise GOD . You don't want to see it fine , take the moon , I'll take the Sun .

You are contradicting yourself. Why use the analogy of the Sun when it involves time and space whereas God is beyond both? There exists only the non-numerical unity outside of time and space. As this unity is non-numerical, it cannot be Triune since three makes sense only against the backdrop of space as it is a number.

Huh ?

The Creation is full of signs , symbols and metaphors pointing to a reality beyond it self . We don't worship the signs , symbols and metaphors , we worship the God that created them . The Sun is simply a sign , a lesson from God , revealing aspects of his attributes and intentions .

Likewise, the Son is a sign of God, not God Himself.

I guess your GOD doesn't generate thoughts , nor does he think . A thoughtless God perhaps ? I don't expect you to have the capacity to grasp the implications of what I just said ..maybe others will . You often miss it

God's thoughts are eternal.

Here read it again , maybe it will sink in :

Following your silly logic .... I guess then that Allah will never forgive you of your sins . If you do something haram and later pray for forgiveness , you will have to remain a "potential" recipient of Allah's forgiveness , not an "actual" recipient . Allah doesn't "change" , hence if he is displeased , he remains displeased .

" GOD NEVER CHANGES ! " ...OK

Allah's "displeasure" is unlike the one we experience. Specifically, it is not an emotion. Read the articles in the following link to find out more

http://sunnianswers.wordpress.com/category/attributes/

The Christian west seperated the phenomenal world from it's Creator , through nature , and recognized man's God given dominion over it .

This would require nature to be regulated by a power other than God's. Hence, God does not have dominion over all that exists.

The Being of beings , The thinker behind the thoughts , is the Father , and from Him arises everything , the Son and Holy Spirit , even creation it self .

If the thoughts of the Father simultaneously bring things into existence, then it is all the more reason to believe the Son and Holy Spirit are created, and therefore, not Gods, because they correspond to the thoughts rather than the thinker Himself. Chew on that you delusional clown.

We will become gods by adoption , or grace

This contradicts what you said earlier-"We don't become GOD ."

All in all, just like John, his latest post is a joke.

[smaneck]

To expose you for the deceiver that you are.

You're accusing him of lying about what he says he saw?

I believe that is contrary to list rules.

Because the Quran says you people are guilty of Tahrif.

That's not the context in which the Qur'an talks about tahrif.

When the people of Khaybar asked Muhammad about the the penalty for adultery according to the Torah, Muhammad answered and said: "The law of God is death by stoning." Whereupon they protested saying: "No such law hath been revealed in the Pentateuch." Muhammad answered and said: "Whom do ye regard among your rabbis as being a recognized authority and having a sure knowledge of the truth?" They agreed upon Ibn-i-Suriya. Thereupon Muhammad summoned him and said: "I adjure thee by God Who clove the sea for you, caused manna to descend upon you, and the cloud to overshadow you, Who delivered you from Pharaoh and his people, and exalted you above all human beings, to tell us what Moses hath decreed concerning adultery between a married man and a married woman." He made reply: "O Muhammad! death by stoning is the law." Muhammad observed: "Why is it then that this law is annulled and hath ceased to operate among the Jews?" He answered and said: "When Nebuchadnezzar delivered Jerusalem to the flames, and put the Jews to death, only a few survived. The divines of that age, considering the extremely limited number of the Jews, and the multitude of the Amalekites, took counsel together, and came to the conclusion that were they to enforce the law of the Pentateuch, every survivor who hath been delivered from the hand of Nebuchadnezzar would have to be put to death according to the verdict of the Book. Owing 86 to such considerations, they totally repealed the penalty of death." It was under these circumstances that the Qur'an said: "They pervert the text of the Word of God." [1 Qur'án 4:45.]

It had nothing to do with changing the actual text of the Bible. As Baha'u'llah says:

. Verily by "perverting" the text is not meant that which these foolish and abject souls have fancied, even as some maintain that Jewish and Christian divines have effaced from the Book such verses as extol and magnify the countenance of Muhammad, and instead thereof have inserted the contrary. How utterly vain and false are these words! Can a man who believeth in a book, and deemeth it to be inspired by God, mutilate it? Moreover, the Pentateuch had been spread over the surface of the earth, and was not confined to Mecca and Medina, so that they could privily corrupt and pervert its text. Nay, rather, by corruption of the text is meant that in which all Muslim divines are engaged today, that is the interpretation of God's holy Book in accordance with their idle imaginings and vain desires. And as the Jews, in the time of Muhammad, interpreted those verses of the Pentateuch, that referred to His Manifestation, 87 after their own fancy, and refused to be satisfied with His holy utterance, the charge of "perverting" the text was therefore pronounced against them.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 85)

[Ibn Abu Talib]

You're accusing him of lying about what he says he saw?

He is too inconsistent to be truthful. Besides, what is it to you?

That's not the context in which the Qur'an talks about tahrif.

When the people of Khaybar asked Muhammad about the the penalty for adultery according to the Torah, Muhammad answered and said: "The law of God is death by stoning." Whereupon they protested saying: "No such law hath been revealed in the Pentateuch." Muhammad answered and said: "Whom do ye regard among your rabbis as being a recognized authority and having a sure knowledge of the truth?" They agreed upon Ibn-i-Suriya. Thereupon Muhammad summoned him and said: "I adjure thee by God Who clove the sea for you, caused manna to descend upon you, and the cloud to overshadow you, Who delivered you from Pharaoh and his people, and exalted you above all human beings, to tell us what Moses hath decreed concerning adultery between a married man and a married woman." He made reply: "O Muhammad! death by stoning is the law." Muhammad observed: "Why is it then that this law is annulled and hath ceased to operate among the Jews?" He answered and said: "When Nebuchadnezzar delivered Jerusalem to the flames, and put the Jews to death, only a few survived. The divines of that age, considering the extremely limited number of the Jews, and the multitude of the Amalekites, took counsel together, and came to the conclusion that were they to enforce the law of the Pentateuch, every survivor who hath been delivered from the hand of Nebuchadnezzar would have to be put to death according to the verdict of the Book. Owing 86 to such considerations, they totally repealed the penalty of death." It was under these circumstances that the Qur'an said: "They pervert the text of the Word of God." [1 Qur'án 4:45.]

Both textual as well as interpretive corruptions constitute Tahrif. While pointing out the various types of alterations the Israelites had been guilty of viz a viz the Bible, the celebrated exegete Amin Ahsan Islahi (rha) writes:

To deliberately interpret something in a manner that is totally opposite to the intention of the author.
To distort the pronunciation of a word to such an extent that the word changes completely. For example, the word ‘مروه’ was changed to ‘موره’ or ‘موريا’.
To add to or delete a sentence or discourse in a manner that completely distorts the original meaning. For example, the Jews altered the incident of the migration of the Prophet Abraham (sws) in a manner that no one could prove that Abraham (sws) had any relationship with the Ka‘bah.
To translate a word that has two meanings in the meaning that is totally against the context. For example the Hebrew word ‘ابن’ was translated as ‘son’ whereas it also meant ‘servant’ and ‘slave’.
To raise questions about something that is absolutely clear in order to create uncertainty about it, or to change it completely.

It had nothing to do with changing the actual text of the Bible. As Baha'u'llah says:

. Verily by "perverting" the text is not meant that which these foolish and abject souls have fancied, even as some maintain that Jewish and Christian divines have effaced from the Book such verses as extol and magnify the countenance of Muhammad, and instead thereof have inserted the contrary. How utterly vain and false are these words! Can a man who believeth in a book, and deemeth it to be inspired by God, mutilate it? Moreover, the Pentateuch had been spread over the surface of the earth, and was not confined to Mecca and Medina, so that they could privily corrupt and pervert its text. Nay, rather, by corruption of the text is meant that in which all Muslim divines are engaged today, that is the interpretation of God's holy Book in accordance with their idle imaginings and vain desires. And as the Jews, in the time of Muhammad, interpreted those verses of the Pentateuch, that referred to His Manifestation, 87 after their own fancy, and refused to be satisfied with His holy utterance, the charge of "perverting" the text was therefore pronounced against them.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 85)

I'd rather go with the following opinion of Ibn Abbas for whom the Prophet(saw) supplicated "O Allah, teach him wisdom (i.e. the understanding of the knowledge of Qur'an)" than with Baha'ullah who, ironically, himself committed Tahrif by interpreting the "seal of prophets" to mean something contrary to the clear text.

Ibn Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Qur'an) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the Scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."

[smaneck]

He is too inconsistent to be truthful. Besides, what is it to you?

I thought John had something significant to say when he was a Muslim and I think he still has something significant to say as a Christian. People are complicated and full of inconsistencies. That doesn't make them liars. It sounds like you are so threatened by his story that you have to discredit it. I don't know what to make of his miracle story, anymore than I knew what to make of my Hindu friend who insists her father is so 'orthodox' that he sits on water. I certainly won't embrace either religion because of such wonders but I'm intensely interested in finding out what they mean to people.

Both textual as well as interpretive corruptions constitute Tahrif.

But can your prove that the Qur'an was speaking of changes made to the actual text of the Qur'an when speaks of tahrif?

Baha'ullah who, ironically, himself committed Tahrif by interpreting the "seal of prophets" to mean something contrary to the clear text.

Oh? And how did Baha'u'llah interepret Seal of the Prophets? Show me where? I'm willing to bet you have no idea what He said on this topic.

[Ibn Abu Talib]

But can your prove that the Qur'an was speaking of changes made to the actual text of the Qur'an when speaks of tahrif?

Yes. To quote Dr.Hasanuddin Ahmed, "The eminent lexicographer, Raghib Isfahani has provided the definition of Tahrif in the following words: 'Tahrif is to render the text in such a way that it may be possible to interpret it in two ways.' According to this definition 'tahrif' refers to distorting or twisting the meaning. The Quran, however, has used the word referring to corruption of the text."

He then goes on to quote 4:46, 5:13 and 2:75, after which he concludes, "Thus it can be concluded that any change in the text by which purport has been necessarily changed is tahrif. If the text is kept intact and if the meaning is changed by way of misinterpretation it cannot be treated as tahrif. It can be termed distortion or misrepresentation."

Oh? And how did Baha'u'llah interepret Seal of the Prophets? Show me where? I'm willing to bet you have no idea what He said on this topic.

He probably said that Muhammad(saw) was the last prophet, but not the last Messenger, not knowing that every Messenger is a prophet.

[Jesus Maranatha]

You continue to respond to what I say with answers that are entirely irrelevant and pointless .

You wrote :

The problem is ....

Yours....


You wrote :

...you did witness it in a Christian context. According to your story, the main character was a Christian who managed to pull off a miracle after much prayer and supplication to God. In addition, you were assisted by the Holy Spirit in establishing the authenticity of the event. Yet, you subsequently converted to Islam. If this is not a joke, I don't know what is.


Yes "subsequently" , 11 years later , I converted to Islam and after a year of being in the barren spiritual waistland of Islam , I returned to Christianity . If you doubt the veracity of my testimony , concerning this miracle ...fine . I'm not going to lose a minute of sleep over your incredulity . .

You wrote :

That was not even an answer to my question.

You may not like the answer , but it's an answer nonetheless .

You wrote :

If this Christian guy was really a miracle worker, wouldn't he render humanity a great service by helping those who are afflicted with incurable diseases?

He has to "render a great service" to humanity , your way ? Even Jesus didn't heal those who didn't have faith , so why should his disciples ?

This "Christian guy" had a healing ministry and visited the hospital practically every day to pray for people . Even those who are "miracle workers " can't just turn a switch and ((((BING))))...MIRACLE ! He has , in the NAME OF JESUS , healed many people through out the years , but he is not an automatic miracle dispenser.

You wrote :

To expose you for the deceiver that you are.

Go right ahead and "expose" me .

Fellow Christians , see how disturbed this Muslim fundamentalist is as a result of a testimony about a miracle ? He can not bear the thought , the possibility , of God manifesting His glory and power through Jesus' Christ. It short circuits his pharisaical-religious brain .

The best way to deal with these types , is not to debate theology with them ( perpetual argumentation .. it amounts to going back and forth ad infinitum , ad nauseum ..since most of them have no desire for the truth ..) . it's to heal a few Muslims in Jesus Name .

You wrote :

I thought so.

You "thought" ?" ?

You wrote :

Let's see how you refute my arguments in this thread

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...d.php?t=114746

I'm not going on a links-tour after your dimwitted arguments . More , your question as to whether I believe Muhammad was demon possessed or not has absolutely no relevance whatsoever , to the issue in question . I clearly demonstrated that Muhammad needed Waraqah to inform him as to who was speaking to him , in the cave . He wasn't sure , if what had spoken to him was demonic or divine .That was the point . As to whether he was actually possessed by devils , that is another issue .

I personally believe , he was a man with good intentions that went astray . He was deceived by a demon that appeared to him as an angel of light :

2Co 11:14 And don't marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

He was a "minister of righteousness" , and started a new "righteous" religion , that exhorts people to " forbid evil and do good " ( a do good religion ) . All of this appears noble on the outside , however it is established upon the false premise , that man's purpose is just to be a do-gooder , aspiring to enter into a state of perpetual bliss in the afterlife . This is not the ultimate purpose or destiny of mankind !

The means to reach our full potential , as human beings , is found within the Last Adam . Jesus Christ . His death and resurrection play a crucial role in our salvation and in allowing us to eventually fully restore God's image and likeness within us . The main difference between Islam and Christianity , is that Islam emphasizes doing , where Christianity on the other hand , emphasizes being ( being to do , not doing to be ..) . We can all do a lot of good , but none of our good works will ever allow us to escape the gravity of our fallen human nature . We need to be "born again" , "born from above " in spirit and in truth , to be saved . The religious mind , unfortunately is unable to understand this .

Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

You wrote :

So you are saying the bible is true as long as the Quran says it is true?

..No not at all . You can't reason properly , it must be Islam . The point is ( read carefully ) ..As a Muslim you have absolutely no grounds upon which to stand and levy your charges against our bible , for the simple reason that your Quran states that Christians have the Torah and Gospel with them .

I am simply pointing this out to you , since you have entered this debate as a Muslim , and not as a Hindu , Sikh , Buddhist , Atheist .etc Isn't it ironic , that you as a Muslim claim that we don't have the Torah or Gospel with us , yet your Quran says we do ? Are you now a "Kafir" ? .

You wrote :

Because the Quran says you people are guilty of Tahrif.

If the Quran claims that we are guilty of Tahrif , while it likewise exhorts us to read the Torah and Gospel that we have with us ..then your Quran contains a serious contradiction .It's flawed , inconsistent and misleading .

You wrote :

If so, why do you appeal to the Quran to prove the genuineness of the bible?

Your question / comment is based on a false premise . I never made an appeal to your Quran , to prove the veracity of my bible . I did however point out that you as a Muslim have no right to claim Christians don't have the "true" Torah or Gospel , when your Quran says we do ! OOOPS . OOOPS .

Let's assume Christians don't possess the "real" gospel . OK ..How can you remain a Muslim ? Do you get the point or are you so far gone mentally that you can't think anymore ? Why are you a Muslim , when your Quran claims we have the Torah and Gospel , yet according to you , WE DON'T... IS YOUR QURAN WRONG ?

Maybe it's time for you to start chanting Hare Krishna ( Ibn Krishna Das ! ) , become a Vaishnava or whatever ...you can't remain a Muslim , if you oppose what YOUR Quran says .

I have the capacity to continue this back and forth with him , but to tell you the truth , I'll rather do something more productive ( like basket weaving ) . You won the debate Ibn !!!

Maranatha
bro john

[Ibn Abu Talib]

Looks like John has nothing to say about the arguments I mounted on his defense of the Trinity.

Yes "subsequently" , 11 years later , I converted to Islam and after a year of being in the barren spiritual waistland of Islam , I returned to Christianity . If you doubt the veracity of my testimony , concerning this miracle ...fine . I'm not going to lose a minute of sleep over your incredulity . .

One wonders as to why a person who was contacted by the Holy Spirit would disavow a religion as "spiritually fulfilling" as Christianity for a "spiritual wasteland" that is Islam.

He has to "render a great service" to humanity , your way ? Even Jesus didn't heal those who didn't have faith , so why should his disciples ?

Why? Because curing people from incurable diseases will generate faith in their hearts.

This "Christian guy" had a healing ministry and visited the hospital practically every day to pray for people .

How many people have recovered from incurable diseases as a result of his prayers?

Fellow Christians , see how disturbed this Muslim fundamentalist is as a result of a testimony about a miracle ? He can not bear the thought , the possibility , of God manifesting His glory and power through Jesus' Christ. It short circuits his pharisaical-religious brain .

The best way to deal with these types , is not to debate theology with them ( perpetual argumentation .. it amounts to going back and forth ad infinitum , ad nauseum ..since most of them have no desire for the truth ..) . it's to heal a few Muslims in Jesus Name .

How do you plan on healing me? Just for your information, molestation does not count as healing.

I personally believe , he was a man with good intentions that went astray . He was deceived by a demon that appeared to him as an angel of light :

2Co 11:14 And don't marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Unfortunately, Gabriel(as) appeared to Muhammad(saw) as a human being, not as an Angel of Light. On the other hand, Paul did say his first experience with the "Divine" was in the form of a bright light that had initially blinded him (Acts 9:3). Looks like Paul was a false prophet according to his own standard.

He was a "minister of righteousness" , and started a new "righteous" religion , that exhorts people to " forbid evil and do good " ( a do good religion ) . All of this appears noble on the outside , however it is established upon the false premise , that man's purpose is just to be a do-gooder , aspiring to enter into a state of perpetual bliss in the afterlife . This is not the ultimate purpose or destiny of mankind !

You are assuming the Gospel is the uncorrupted Word of God.

.No not at all . You can't reason properly , it must be Islam . The point is ( read carefully ) ..As a Muslim you have absolutely no grounds upon which to stand and levy your charges against our bible , for the simple reason that your Quran states that Christians have the Torah and Gospel with them .

The Quran also says that these scriptures are corrupted.

If the Quran claims that we are guilty of Tahrif , while it likewise exhorts us to read the Torah and Gospel that we have with us ..then your Quran contains a serious contradiction .It's flawed , inconsistent and misleading .

The Quran says to judge Allah's revelations contained in the Torah and Gospel using itself as a standard. After all, the Quran is called Muhaymin.

Your question / comment is based on a false premise . I never made an appeal to your Quran , to prove the veracity of my bible . I did however point out that you as a Muslim have no right to claim Christians don't have the "true" Torah or Gospel , when your Quran says we do ! OOOPS . OOOPS .

Let's assume Christians don't possess the "real" gospel . OK ..How can you remain a Muslim ? Do you get the point or are you so far gone mentally that you can't think anymore ? Why are you a Muslim , when your Quran claims we have the Torah and Gospel , yet according to you , WE DON'T... IS YOUR QURAN WRONG ?

Maybe it's time for you to start chanting Hare Krishna ( Ibn Krishna Das ! ) , become a Vaishnava or whatever ...you can't remain a Muslim , if you oppose what YOUR Quran says .

I have the capacity to continue this back and forth with him , but to tell you the truth , I'll rather do something more productive ( like basket weaving ) . You won the debate Ibn !!!

At this point, you are making a complete fool of yourself.

[smaneck]

If I actually witnessed a miracle within a Christian context and considered it authentic , I shouldn't have later converted to Islam ....interesting .

Okay, I'm confused. Didn't you witness this within the Christian context?

[smaneck]

Muslim science on the other hand , fail prey to the Al-Ghazalis and the religionist's "Allah regulates everything " ? .

I would argue that it was nominalists like Al-Ghazzali who laid the groundwork for the emergence of modern science by focusing on the particular and inductive logic versus which led to the scientific method. Greek philosophy was the greatest imediment to it.