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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    This is not the case. In Judaism "The soul is usually described as arriving when the first breath of life is taken at birth. The primary Jewish imagery for the beginning of life comes from Genesis 1:2, where breath hovers above the waters of earth before life emerges from that cosmic womb. Then, in Genesis 2:7, after the body of Adam is fashioned from the clay of the earth, G*d is described as breathing life into him. These stories frame the basis for the Jewish view that the fetus gains full human rights and status only once the baby’s head has emerged from the birth canal..."

    http://www.reclaimingjudaism.org/tea...in-jewish-view

    There is no reason to think that Jesus, as a Jew, didn't hold to the same view.
    It is interesting how the article attempts to dismiss the view from the Talmud that the soul is there from conception:

    "There is one Talmudic passage in which a Greek philosopher presses a rabbi on this issue until–probably for the sake of peace with the Greek occupiers of the Land of Israel--the rabbi accedes to the prevailing view in Greek culture that the soul is present from conception. This concession did not, however, change the Jewish perspective that the activation of the fetus’s status as a human with full human rights still occurs upon birth."

    Notice how she changed from claiming the soul is not present until birth to "full human rights upon birth" - nice piece of slight of hand there.

    The Jews believed God put together the person in the womb, giving it life and already has plans for that individual. So any killing of a fetus would be a sin, disrupting God's plan. So they were against abortion.

    Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being;
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
    14I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    your works are wonderful,
    I know that full well.
    15My frame was not hidden from you
    when I was made in the secret place,
    when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
    16Your eyes saw my unformed body;
    all the days ordained for me were written in your book
    before one of them came to be.

    And they believed that the fetus was aware while in the womb as illustrated in Luke 1 Where Mary goes to visit Elizabeth who is pregnant with John:

    44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Note that your link says A Jewish view, the site has a rather liberal slant to it, and Judaism evolved fairly significantly from the time of Jesus (when there were several different camps) to the first writings of nascent Judaism. There is no reason beyond your fervent wish that Jesus didn't hold to the same view. In any case, the first-century Jewish-Christian Didache clearly condemns abortion along with murder and infanticide.
      Rabbie Goldie Feldman is a radical feminist, who claims that she's attempting to reclaim the "herstory" of Judaism. Her words are in direct contradiction to another Rabbi that has been mentioned on this forum named Rabbi David M. Feldman. His view on this matter agrees with the one I presented in post #734 by the New Testament scholar Michael J. Gorman.

      Source: Birth Control in Jewish Law: Marital Relations, Contraception, and Abortion as Set Forth in the Classic Texts of Jewish Law by David Michael Feldman

      Theories of Ensoulment In Judaism

      To begin with, the moment of soul-infusion of the embryo should, it would seem, be of similar importance for the morality of abortion in Jewish law. The extent to which this is or is not so can be gauged from the following examination of the question in the rabbinic system.

      A dialogue between the Roman Emperor Antoninus and Rabbi [Judah, compiler of the Mishnah, known simply as "Rabbi"] is recorded in the Talmud:18

      Antoninus said to Rabbi: "From when is the soul (n'shamah) endowed in man, from the time of conception19 or from the time of [the embryo's] formation?"20 Rabbi replied: "From the time of formation." The emperor demurred: "Can meat remain three days without salt and not putrefy?21 You must concede that the soul enters at conception." Rabbi [later] said, "Antoninus taught me this, and Scripture supports him, as it is said (Job 10:12): 'and Thy visitation hath preserved my spirit (ruhi).'"22

      "Visitation" being identified with "ensoulment," the view of Rabbi thus teaches entry of the soul into the body at the very beginning of gestation, at the time of conception. This conclusion is affirmed in the parallel Midrashic version of the dialogue, except that here Rabbi's original view, before his concession to Antoninus, placed ensoulment even later than "formation"--at the time of birth itself:23
      ". . . From when is the soul endowed in man; from the time he leaves his mother's womb or from before that time?" Rabbi replied: "From the time he leaves his mother's womb." [Antoninus demurred, etc., and Rabbi agreed: from the time of conception.]

      The bearing of these passages on the question of abortion has been debated among modern scholars. Julius Preuss declared at the beginning of this century that such theoretical musings have no relationship to the Talmud's attitude towards the juristic problem of foeticide.24 Prof. V. Aptowitzer disputes him; Rabbi's juristic decision that the foetus is to be regarded as "part of the mother" is, he claims, a consequences of Rabbi's (original) theological view that the soul enters at a later stage.25 He further argues for the greater authenticity of the Midrashic version and, accordingly, holds that Rabbi's original view, taken from the Stoics, was that the soul enters at birth.26 R. Immanuel Jakobovitz discounts the essential relationship, arguing correctly that there is no basis in the Talmud for a connection between views of ensoulment and the legal status of the embryo.27 W. Hirsch of London, in his recent volume on rabbinic concepts of the soul, rejects Aptowitzer's second point, that of the Midrashic version's relative authenticity. Rabbi, he feels, could never have believed that ensoulment takes place as late as birth.28 To believe so would have placed him at odds with the various Aggadic teachings about "life" in the embryo: that Jacob and Esau "struggled" with different inclinations in Rebecca's womb;29 that the child is instructed in Torah and adjured to be righteous before leaving his mother's womb,30 etc.




      18 TB Sanhedrin 91b.

      19 Lit., "visitation" [p'kidah]. This is explained by Rashi as referring to Niddah 16b, according to which the drop of semen is brought by an angel to the throne of God to discuss its destiny. See previous chapter, Note 81, and also Sefer Y'tzirat HaV'lad of Jellinek (Ch. 7, Note 1). But Yad Ramah to Sanhedrin 91b dismisses this as "div'rei Halomot"; he suggests p'kidah is from pakad et Sarah, etc.; hence is time of conception for that reason. Hirsch (see on) associates word with hayyav adam lifkod et ishto, hence time of coitus is meant.

      20 "Y'tzirah." This alludes to the frequently stated idea in the Talmud that embryo begins to "form" on the 40th day of gestation. See. E.g., Niddah 30 a, b; Rashi to P'sahim 9a, based on Mishnah Oholot, XVIII, 7; and see previous chapter, Notes 81, 82. In TB M'nahot 99b, R. Yohanan and R. Elazer speak of n'shamah notz'rah b'arba'im (as in Num. Rabbah 5, 4). Despite Rashi's application of their phrase to tzurat ha-v'lad, they imply n'shamah at least as much as tzurah and hence may be said to oppose Rabbi's ultimate view--as pointed out by R. Moses J. Feldman in unpublished Glosses to the Talmud, B'rakhot 60a.

      21 The "three days," suggests Preuss (Note 24, below) refers to the maximum time between coitus and impregnation. The sperm could not last longer than that without something to animate it.

      22 Maharsha (Sanhedrin, ad loc.) understands the subject and object of this verse to be interchanged: my spirit (i.e., animal soul, or "salt") has preserved my embryo ("thy visitation").

      23 Gen. Rabbah 34, 10.

      24 Julius Preuss, Biblisch-Talmudisch Medizin, p. 450.

      25 Viktor Aptowitzer, "The Status of the Embryo in Jewish Criminal Law," Jewish Quarterly Review, XV (1924) 115 ff.; and "Emdat HaUbar B'Dinei Onshin Shel Yisrael," in Sinai, p.32.

      26 JQR, loc.cit., pp 69, 115; Sinai, loc.cit., p. 29. The Stoics taught that the soul--or "pneuma"--joins the body at birth. See Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, VI, 56.

      27 Jewish Medical Ethics, p. 332, Note 138.

      28 W. Hirsch, Rabbinic Psychology (London, 1947), pp. 188-89.

      29 Gen. Rabbah, 63, 6.

      30 Niddah, 30b; Sefer Y'tzirat HaV'lad (see Ch. 7, Note 1).

      © Copyright Original Source



      Eventually Feldman concludes that because of the various views in the Talmudic literature on the matter, and because the question of therapeutic abortion was primarily a legal, not theological issue (non-therapeutic abortion just wasn't in question) that, "these Aggadic or theological reflections--or the actual spiritual destinies of the foetus--have no bearing on the abortion question. The Responsa accordingly omit them from consideration."

      Again, though, most of this was covered in post #734.
      Last edited by Adrift; 01-12-2018, 09:38 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        Again, though, most of this was covered in post #734.
        Yeah, I figured Tassman was doing his usual "pretend this hasn't been refuted 10 times over already." I thought I recalled seeing you discuss this.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Yeah, I figured Tassman was doing his usual "pretend this hasn't been refuted 10 times over already." I thought I recalled seeing you discuss this.
          You mean he will forget about this and bring it up again in a future post?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            You mean he will forget about this and bring it up again in a future post?
            It's all about ILGA and NAMBLA.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              It's all about ILGA and NAMBLA.
              No, no, no, a thousand times, NO! You've been trouncing him on that. Time to go back to a topic which hopefully everyone's forgotten about.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                No, no, no, a thousand times, NO! You've been trouncing him on that. Time to go back to a topic which hopefully everyone's forgotten about.
                Sowwy.....

                [ backing out slowly ]
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Note that your link says A Jewish view, the site has a rather liberal slant to it, and Judaism evolved fairly significantly from the time of Jesus (when there were several different camps) to the first writings of nascent Judaism. There is no reason beyond your fervent wish that Jesus didn't hold to the same view. In any case, the first-century Jewish-Christian Didache clearly condemns abortion along with murder and infanticide.
                  In any case the beliefs of some or even all Jews does not have the same authority as the Bible. And while Jesus was a Jew he is a special case which is not subject to imposing some view on him because folks at that time held it.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment

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