A prayer?

[mossrose]

can you show me please?

Pope John Paul II credited Mary for saving his life

It's the expressions that seem to give to Mary some power other than the power of intercession.

As I already stated, JP seems to have given Mary more than simply intercessory powers.

[Rusty T]

and i firmly believe it to be possible if not probable for that to be the case

[Adrift]

and i firmly believe it to be possible if not probable for that to be the case

So it's not "just like a friend" praying for us. Its something more?

[mossrose]

and i firmly believe it to be possible if not probable for that to be the case

I misunderstood you, then.

You do believe that Mary has as much power as God to act on our behalf?

[Jawa Man]

Max, I will be responding to you. It's just such a long post for me to handle all at once and I'm kind of drained right now. I am about half way done.

[Jawa Man]

and i firmly believe it to be possible if not probable for that to be the case

Please explain this, or I may accidentally find myself allying with the Protestants!

[Frogwarrior]

Please explain this, or I may accidentally find myself allying with the Protestants!

the HORROR!

[Jawa Man]

Actually, after thinking about it, I think I might understand where tizz is coming from. We have a story in the Orthodox Church of St. Macarius, after his death, miraculously coming to the battlefield to slay Emperor Julian the Apostate by the will of God.

[Rusty T]

Jawa,

Our traditions, the Catholic tradition (I'm including the Orthodox in this), are chock full of examples of this very thing. St. John Chrysostom calls the saints those "who have great power in God." Think about angels for a minute . . . because they actually have the power to act in our lives, does this mean that they somehow derive this power of themselves and not from God? I wouldn't think so. We, as Christians, have been made joint-heirs with Christ. We are to be honored members of God's household. Who's to say that the saints are not given the authority (by Christ) to actually enact change in the lives of those in the body militant? Many of the same people who object to this notion are adamant that in the coming kingdom, the children of God will be set as rulers over cities and nations. Surely, in their minds, the saints of this kingdom will have actual power and authority, but they would never say that these rulers have authority and power apart from that given to them by God.

rusty

[Dee Dee Warren]

Um, yeah, except the Bible isn't littered with statements that say Jesus is not God.

The Bible isn't littered with hardly ANYTHING ABOUT MARY.

Then you'd better drop your fixations with Xena, Macs, and 24 post haste - because it would be easy to take those things out of context and paint you as an idolater, and call any explanations "hand waving."

1. I am taking nothing out of context. It is a prayer context - i.e. admitted religious devotion.

2. That was cheap and over the line, but suit yourself. If you are reduced to such sallow arguments (and yes I meant sallow, though shallow would fit as well), it makes me all the more convinced. If you want to know why that over the line, PM me.

Those outside won't generally see the prayer in your OP. The Christians (and Jews) Muhammed was exposed to were not very orthodox. I'm not here to defend the RCC.

Of course they weren't orthodox, they at a minimum gave the appearance of worshipping Mary. Just as that prayer does. Just as numerous RCC I have known do.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Jawa,

Our traditions, the Catholic tradition (I'm including the Orthodox in this), are chock full of examples of this very thing. St. John Chrysostom calls the saints those "who have great power in God." Think about angels for a minute . . . because they actually have the power to act in our lives, does this mean that they somehow derive this power of themselves and not from God? I wouldn't think so. We, as Christians, have been made joint-heirs with Christ. We are to be honored members of God's household. Who's to say that the saints are not given the authority (by Christ) to actually enact change in the lives of those in the body militant? Many of the same people who object to this notion are adamant that in the coming kingdom, the children of God will be set as rulers over cities and nations. Surely, in their minds, the saints of this kingdom will have actual power and authority, but they would never say that these rulers have authority and power apart from that given to them by God.

rusty

I could change a few words, and nothing of the context, and that is a JW argument.

[Dee Dee Warren]

When a friend prays for me, and a favourable outcome comes out, I don't "venerate" my friend or praise them for their power from God. I praise God.

I always looked on in wonder on how people could believe the obvious charlatanry to Joseph Smith - and now I wonder if anyone can really believe that this prayer is appropriate. I don't believe that those who defend it really believe it is. Make of that what you wish. That prayer is idolatrous.

[auggybendoggy]

Im with xena, max and apfox,
the prayer of the OP is clearly NOT a prayer of intercession. It's directly requesting mary to do things which only God does.

I think Xena is correct about this issue. It seems deceiving to me to try to pray (the op) and then claim it's just a request to God but addressed to mary, It's like Mormons coming to the door and saying we believe in the gospel too. Dig a bit and what you'll find is a mess of scripture (which they simply deny for mistranslation).

This reminds me of that sort of poly. Here pray to this wood idol but dont sweat it, because God made and blessed the idol, God is working through the idol.

Again, Barth is right, when we look at the saints in contrast to the rightoueness of God (Jesus) they are dissappointments. Can someone prove otherwise?

Aug

[MarcusAndreas]

That's a great prayer.
Sure, spout all your idolatry crapola but I'm not listening.

[Dee Dee Warren]

If you're not listening then go not listen somewhere else. This thread is for people who are listening.

Now I think you meant something else. But your words communicated a child sitting in the middle of the floor with his fingers in his ears going LALALALALALALALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU.