A prayer?

[One Bad Pig]

Pushback again:
And the disciples are the ones Jesus says are his mother. Now everyones on the same level of blessing.

Aug

That's Jesus using subversive language to show that the tie of discipleship is more important than that of family. That point was brought home to me by the Anglican N. T. Wright.

[auggybendoggy]

Piggy,
Agreed, but that's my point. Family (being his mother) does not make her better than anyone else. But if someone is going to make her into something for being his (family) mother, than I'm going to make all christiand (disciples) out to be something for being his mother (family).

Simply put, Mary still proves to be a woman who had to deal with sins she committed.

So if "the MOTHER of God" is so important than it's odd that subversive language is used on the disciples. Funny how he never uses subversive language as "here is my Father"...
Rather he says not to call anyone on earth your Father.

Again, I'm not saying calling your bilogical dad "father" is a sin, but I am saying, It is our Father in heaven that is righteouss not our earthly dad no matter how good. Truly in a sense, Only our Father in heaven is our creator.

Aug

[One Bad Pig]

[JonLanceBarker]

I can smell the smoke of your frustrated mental gears from here.

[Maxentius]

JLB,

Instead of going for cheap and easy rhetorical points, why not deal with the words of the prayer, which seem to be idolatrous in part because the prayer is not merely a request for intercession, but a request she provide things which only God does.

I mean, it seems no one can give a coherent description of this prayer which mitigates the charge of idolatry--instead we are supposed to just trust that it is not simply "because".

[peteresther]

Hello, I would like to add that I find it odd that the Catholic church still refer to Mary as the virgin Mary, when surely because she had other children with Joseph in the normal way, she did not die a virgin?

Esther:)

[JonLanceBarker]

Hello, I would like to add that I find it odd that the Catholic church still refer to Mary as the virgin Mary, when surely because she had other children with Joseph in the normal way, she did not die a virgin?

Esther:)

Sigh....

The Greek word adelphos can also mean "cousin" or generic "relative."

There is no direct statement in Scripture that the Virgin ever ended her virginity, even after the birth of Christ.

To demonstrate...my age has been under twenty until this day.

Does that mean I am now twenty?

No, and I'm not.

(Man, I have seen this question answered WAY too many times... )

[JonLanceBarker]

JLB,

Instead of going for cheap and easy rhetorical points,

<Sarcasm>

Fun-sucker!

This is a fair warning to those sarcastically impaired the preceding text was written in jest.

why not deal with the words of the prayer, which seem to be idolatrous in part because the prayer is not merely a request for intercession, but a request she provide things which only God does.

Let's have a look at that prayer again, it's been too long since I've seen it:

O All-holy Lady Theotokos, light of my darkened soul, my hope, my shelter, my refuge, my consolation and my joy:

(Is this soaring description really a surprising thing in a culture that honors by hyperbolizing?)

I thank thee that thou hast accounted me worthy, although unworthy, to be a partaker of the immaculate Body and precious Blood of thy Son.

(I understand this as thanking the Virgin for her intercession on their behalf.)

But do thou, who gavest birth to the true Light, enlighten the mental eyes of my heart; O thou who didst bear the fountain of immortality, quicken thou me who lie dead in sin.

(Again, by intercession.)

O compassion-loving Mother of the merciful God, have mercy upon me, and grant me humility and contrition of heart, and meekness in my thoughts, and deliverance from the bondage of my vain imaginings.

(Must I repeat myself?)

And account me worthy, even unto my last breath, to receive without condemnation the sanctification of the immaculate Mysteries, unto the healing of both soul and body.

(Ditto the above.)

And grant unto me tears of repentance and confession, that I may hymn thee and glorify thee all the days of my life: for blessed and glorified art thou unto all ages.

(Ditto!!! And the "blessed and glorified" bit harkens back to the Magnificat.)

Amen.

I mean, it seems no one can give a coherent description of this prayer which mitigates the charge of idolatry--instead we are supposed to just trust that it is not simply "because".

That is an extremely unfair description of the feedback in this thread (and others regarding the general concept).

I highly doubt that your obstinacy would be convinced by ANYTHING the lot of us non-Prots could say...unless we say, "You're right Max, it's idolatrous and we're all freaking heretics."

But you know that won't happen, so here's to obstinately unconvinced Lutherans and frustrated saint-venerators. :wine:

Cheers, have a wonderful Sunday morning, and try not to lose too much sleep.

[peteresther]

Sigh....

The Greek word adelphos can also mean "cousin" or generic "relative."

There is no direct statement in Scripture that the Virgin ever ended her virginity, even after the birth of Christ.

To demonstrate...my age has been under twenty until this day.

Does that mean I am now twenty?

No, and I'm not.

(Man, I have seen this question answered WAY too many times... )

Hi JonLanceBarker, easy with all that sighing....

May I propose Mathew 1:25, speaking about Joseph's 'union' with Mary?:

"But he had no union with her as her husband until she had borne her first-born son, and he called His name Jesus."

peteresther

[JonLanceBarker]

Hi JonLanceBarker, easy with all that sighing....

May I propose Mathew 1:25, speaking about Joseph's 'union' with Mary?:

"But he had no union with her as her husband until she had borne her first-born son, and he called His name Jesus."

peteresther

Look again at my age analogy. I saw that verse coming a mile away:

To demonstrate...my age has been under twenty until this day.

Does that mean I am now twenty?

No, and I'm not.

[auggybendoggy]

Piggy,
sorry if I frustrated you, perhaps I missed the point?

[Dee Dee Warren]

That is an extremely unfair description of the feedback in this thread (and others regarding the general concept).

I find it quite accurate.

I highly doubt that your obstinacy would be convinced by ANYTHING the lot of us non-Prots could say...unless we say, "You're right Max, it's idolatrous and we're all freaking heretics."

Exaggerate much? There already have been prayers posted in this thread that I as a Prot would not agree with, but said did not rise to the problem with this prayer. I would be convinced and impressed if instead of dancing around it, it was conceded that this prayer is problematic but you guys just can't do that, and it is simply because. Just as Max said.

[Dee Dee Warren]

I can smell the smoke of your frustrated mental gears from here.

Well something certainly does smell and it is the idolatry in the prayer in the OP.

[peteresther]

Look again at my age analogy. I saw that verse coming a mile away:

Okay JLB, I am to admit, but I do not understand your age analogy, and I have decided to ask you to please explain it to me, instead of trying to figure it out by myself any longer!

That 'until' I take to mean until after Mary gave birth to Jesus...then Joseph did have union with Mary...

Also, some of us (myself) are not so clever, so maybe you could just answer plainly and bear with us...

peteresther

[Adrift]

Sigh....

The Greek word adelphos can also mean "cousin" or generic "relative."

It could (though its odd the verse you're referring to mentions his "cousins" James, Joses, Juda, and Simon, but not John the Baptist), but what of the word adelphē, which is the word for "sisters" which does not also mean cousin?