A prayer?

[mossrose]

Please pray for me, St. Mossy.
sm

I sure will!

I can't guarantee that my prayers will be answered in the way you would like, though.

I am only a human saint.

[One Bad Pig]

I sure will!

I can't guarantee that my prayers will be answered in the way you would like, though.

I am only a human saint.

So are all the others.

[mossrose]

So are all the others.

Yes, that's very true.

However, the "saints" that are prayed TO are dead people, and they can't pray for anybody any more.

Hence, it is useless to pray TO them.

And Mary is no better than any other dead person when it comes down to it. She needed a Saviour just like everybody else.

[One Bad Pig]

O All-holy Lady Theotokos, light of my darkened soul, my hope, my shelter, my refuge, my consolation and my joy: I thank thee that thou hast accounted me worthy, although unworthy, to be a partaker of the immaculate Body and precious Blood of thy Son. But do thou, who gavest birth to the true Light, enlighten the mental eyes of my heart; O thou who didst bear the fountain of immortality, quicken thou me who lie dead in sin. O compassion-loving Mother of the merciful God, have mercy upon me, and grant me humility and contrition of heart, and meekness in my thoughts, and deliverance from the bondage of my vain imaginings. And account me worthy, even unto my last breath, to receive without condemnation the sanctification of the immaculate Mysteries, unto the healing of both soul and body. And grant unto me tears of repentance and confession, that I may hymn thee and glorify thee all the days of my life: for blessed and glorified art thou unto all ages.

Amen.


(Source: A Pocket Prayer Book for Orthodox Christians, according to the use of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, Copyright 1956, 12th printing: 1999)

For some perspective, here are a couple other prayers to Mary from my Carpatho-Russian prayer book.

From morning prayer:

O Birth-giver of God, my most holy lady! Unworthy as I am, I beg you: by your holy and powerful prayers, empty my heart of all despair, of all laziness and slowness in understanding spiritual things, of all forgetfulness, of all sinful and crafty thoughts. By the strength of your prayers, cleanse my clouded mind and bruised heart. Free me from the memories of sins long gone by. Rescue me from every inclination to do wrong. In your goodness help me, for I am poor and lost. For you are praised by all generations, and your glorious name is honored forever.

From this you can see that everything she accomplishes is through prayer, for the fervent, effectual prayer of a righteous man (or woman) avails much. That is why we ask the saints to pray for us.

From evening prayer:

O loving Mother of our Good King, pure and blessed Virgin Mary: Pour the grace of your Son and our God into my restless soul. Lead me by your prayers to always do the right thing, so that I may spend my whole life without blame and reach paradise through your prayers, Mother of God, for you are pure and blessed forever.

Again, you can see that it is her prayers which are at work. You can also see the careful delineation between her and God.

[Amazing Rando]

However, the "saints" that are prayed TO are dead people, and they can't pray for anybody any more.

Hence, it is useless to pray TO them.

If they truly were dead, then you'd have a point.

[auggybendoggy]

Mary was a dissapointment. Just as Moses was. Seriously if they weren't they could have died on the cross for our sins.

Theres a reason why the ol lady needed a savior, she was lost.

So she needed saving from the death which is through life in the Son. Thus it is logical to say that the wage of sin is death and therfore she was bound to disobedience with the rest of us.

I see nothing special about here accept what Jesus brings to each; RATHER THAN BLESSED IS THE WOMB THAT BORE ME AND THE BREAST THAT NURSED ME, BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD AND OBEY.

I simply see no way for Catholics who want so much for Mary to be more than she is, w/o violating the very scriptures they compiled.
I would have more respect for many catholics who take shots off on protestants like us ripping parts out of the bible and even books, if they would treat their own "full" books with better respect than they do protestants

claiming we rip parts or books out is no differeent than saying catholics read into it what is not there.

Again, prove that she did not need saving and you'll prove that she had no sin. Prove that there are other names under heaven by which man can be saved and you'll prove she can save you. Prove that the womb and breast that nursed Jesus is better than hearing the word of God and obeying and you'll prove she is better than others. Facts are Facts, she aint any better than Rachel, Sarah, Rahab, Eve...
It is through adam all died and it is via Christ ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE, not a mention of the ol lady.

I'm not impressed.

Aug

[Amazing Rando]

Here's the line that leaps out at me as more than a little questionable: "O compassion-loving Mother of the merciful God, have mercy upon me."

This seems to strongly insinuate that it is the Mother of God, rather than God himself, who will judge us and to whom we need to appeal for mercy. That's disturbing to me, as I'm fairly certain that it is Jesus, rather than his mother, who will come again to judge the living and the dead.

[mossrose]

If they truly were dead, then you'd have a point.

Rando, their bodies are dead. They are not praying for us. The saints in heaven (including my Father and my Mother and all believers who have died) are praising God. They are not praying for us.

The only one interceding for us is the Holy Spirit.

[Amazing Rando]

Rando, their bodies are dead. They are not praying for us. The saints in heaven (including my Father and my Mother and all believers who have died) are praising God. They are not praying for us.

The only one interceding for us is the Holy Spirit.

God is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him, all are alive.

Who says you need a physical body to pray? If you can praise God while your physical body lies decomposing in the ground, then you can pray and intercede on behalf of others if your body's dead as well.

[ChemMJW]

Yes, that's very true.

However, the "saints" that are prayed TO are dead people, and they can't pray for anybody any more.

Hence, it is useless to pray TO them.

Hi,

I don't understand what you have written. Are not the "saints" (I'm not sure whey you wrote that in quotes, as even Protestant denominations recognize sainthood) risen in Christ and experiencing eternity in heaven, assuming they were "saved"? Do they not therefore have direct access to God, do they not continually behold his face and cry "Holy! Holy! Holy!"? If so, what prevents them from serving as petitioners for us before His throne? Are you claiming that there is some physical barrier that prevents us from addressing the saints? It cannot simply be death that prevents this, because that would cast into question the substantial reunion of body and soul in heaven. Admittedly, of course, we do not require the saints in order to address our supplications to God. Neither, however, do we require a lawyer in order to initiate a legal proceeding, and neither do we require an accountant to assist us with our taxes. It's just better and easier when we have allies in our corner, helping us along, lighting the path, and supporting us. We know well that God can be moved by petitioning, so how awesome is the thought that our forebears in faith echo our supplications directly in God's presence! The Liturgical Churches do not consider saints as some minor deities a la the Greek pantheon, having special powers and special wills of their own. They are simply fellow human beings who have already completed their earthly journey, who are enjoying their heavenly reward, and who now reiterate our own petitions to God, not because they have any magical powers, but because they know that deus caritas est, God is love, and he hears the prayers of his children.

Peace.

[ChemMJW]

Here's the line that leaps out at me as more than a little questionable: "O compassion-loving Mother of the merciful God, have mercy upon me."

This seems to strongly insinuate that it is the Mother of God, rather than God himself, who will judge us and to whom we need to appeal for mercy. That's disturbing to me, as I'm fairly certain that it is Jesus, rather than his mother, who will come again to judge the living and the dead.

Hi,

I have a point along the lines of what you've brought up.

First of all, I am not a scholar of ancient languages, and I do not know what language the quoted prayer originally appeared in.

When people have problems with terms in various prayers, especially when they are not inclined to agree with the prayer, I often wonder whether the problem can be traced to nuanced meanings lost in translation. The classic example is the numerous Greek words for different aspects of love - eros, agape, and so forth.

In the quoted prayer, I do not see it myself as an appeal to Mary to have mercy in the penitential sense, i.e., I do not think that Mary is being asked concretely to forgive sin. Rather, this seems to me to be more along the line of "have pity on me" or "do not turn away / ignore me due to my sinfulness" or "do not despise me on account of my sinfulness." Imagine you are a child, and you have committed some infraction - you cheated on a test or stole a dollar from the neighbor's kid. Mom finds out, and in your fear of rejection you ask her to "have mercy" on you. This cannot literally be a request for forgiveness, as forgiveness is not hers to give - the victim of the infraction is someone else entirely. What you are in fact asking is that she not turn away in disgust, that she not expel you from the family unit on account of your error, that she overlook this mistake, and that the family relationships remain normal. I see a similar type of thing going on in the line of the prayer you quoted.

Peace.

[Dee Dee Warren]

For some perspective, here are a couple other prayers to Mary from my Carpatho-Russian prayer book.

From morning prayer:

O Birth-giver of God, my most holy lady! Unworthy as I am, I beg you: by your holy and powerful prayers, empty my heart of all despair, of all laziness and slowness in understanding spiritual things, of all forgetfulness, of all sinful and crafty thoughts. By the strength of your prayers, cleanse my clouded mind and bruised heart. Free me from the memories of sins long gone by. Rescue me from every inclination to do wrong. In your goodness help me, for I am poor and lost. For you are praised by all generations, and your glorious name is honored forever.

From this you can see that everything she accomplishes is through prayer, for the fervent, effectual prayer of a righteous man (or woman) avails much. That is why we ask the saints to pray for us.

From evening prayer:

O loving Mother of our Good King, pure and blessed Virgin Mary: Pour the grace of your Son and our God into my restless soul. Lead me by your prayers to always do the right thing, so that I may spend my whole life without blame and reach paradise through your prayers, Mother of God, for you are pure and blessed forever.

Again, you can see that it is her prayers which are at work. You can also see the careful delineation between her and God.

Those prayers, while I find them theologically distasteful, I would not call idolatrous as I did the one in the OP.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Rando, the whole freakin' thing jumps out at me, but hey, let's just start with the beginning:

O All-holy Lady Theotokos, light of my darkened soul, my hope, my shelter, my refuge, my consolation and my joy:...

Mary IS NOT the light of anyone's darkened soul, she had better not be their hope, shelter, refuge, consolation and joy.

All of those are Biblical phrases and descriptions which in praise are God's alone. Not Mary-Goddess.

[Alan3838]

Mt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

That's pretty straight forward know matter how much we interput it.

[Amazing Rando]

Hi,

I have a point along the lines of what you've brought up.

First of all, I am not a scholar of ancient languages, and I do not know what language the quoted prayer originally appeared in.

When people have problems with terms in various prayers, especially when they are not inclined to agree with the prayer, I often wonder whether the problem can be traced to nuanced meanings lost in translation. The classic example is the numerous Greek words for different aspects of love - eros, agape, and so forth.

In the quoted prayer, I do not see it myself as an appeal to Mary to have mercy in the penitential sense, i.e., I do not think that Mary is being asked concretely to forgive sin. Rather, this seems to me to be more along the line of "have pity on me" or "do not turn away / ignore me due to my sinfulness" or "do not despise me on account of my sinfulness." Imagine you are a child, and you have committed some infraction - you cheated on a test or stole a dollar from the neighbor's kid. Mom finds out, and in your fear of rejection you ask her to "have mercy" on you. This cannot literally be a request for forgiveness, as forgiveness is not hers to give - the victim of the infraction is someone else entirely. What you are in fact asking is that she not turn away in disgust, that she not expel you from the family unit on account of your error, that she overlook this mistake, and that the family relationships remain normal. I see a similar type of thing going on in the line of the prayer you quoted.

Peace.

Maybe, but I'm very skeptical. The problem comes in that we're supposed to be praying something like "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me, a sinner." That prayer is, as I understand it, second nature to Orthodox believers.

Surely anyone who rendered that prayer into English would have been aware of the startling liturgical parallels. Asking Mary to have "mercy" on you is just begging for trouble, considering how deeply ingrained the "Jesus- have mercy on me" prayer is in our liturgical mindsets. Perhaps it was entirely innocent, or perhaps it's a translational problem as you suggest- I always like to try to give people the benefit of the doubt before hurling charges of idolatry at them. But that prayer, as it stands, is deeply problematic precisely because of the liturgical parallels it suggests.