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More than ever - SCHOOL CHOICE

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Joel View Post
    The state takes a large chunk of my money (and from all my neighbors), gives it to the state school, and then says, "Thank goodness that we're providing you with 'free' education for your kids. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to afford to educate your kids."

    It's like the Harry Browne joke, "Government is good at one thing: It knows how to break your legs, hand you a crutch, and say, "See, if it weren't for the government, you wouldn't be able to walk.""
    Kinda reminds me (I don't know why) of the definition of a consultant....

    Somebody who steals your watch, then charges you $200 / hour to tell you what time it is.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Kinda reminds me (I don't know why) of the definition of a consultant....

      Somebody who steals your watch, then charges you $200 / hour to tell you what time it is.
      Can't they just look on their phone?

      Comment


      • #33
        OK, so I'm looking at BLM's demands in another thread, and one of the biggies is reparations with regard to education.

        THIS PART ALONE is reason enough for blacks to be for school choice, which liberals vigorously oppose.... (bolding mine)
        • Education in the U.S. has always been a subversive act for Black people. During enslavement we were legally barred from the most basic forms of education including literacy. Post-Civil War, and even after the Brown v. Board of Education (1954) decision, Black people have been locked into segregated institutions that are underfunded, under resourced and often face severe health risk because of the decrepit conditions of their school buildings.
        • The current racial equity gap in education has roots that date back to enslavement. In fact, recent studies suggest that racial educational inequalities may be the most (measurable) enduring legacy of slavery. The same study also verified ongoing income inequality correlated to counties where slavery was prevalent.
        • The cradle-to-college pipeline has been systematically cut off for Black communities. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, 23 states spend more per pupil in affluent districts than in high-poverty districts that contain a high concentrations of Black students; and the U.S. Department of Education’s Office of Civil Rights shows persistent and glaring opportunity gaps and racial inequities for Black students. Black students are less likely to attend schools that offer advanced coursework, less likely to be placed in gifted and talented programs, more likely to attend schools with less qualified educators, and employ law enforcement officers but no counselors.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          According to the National Center for Education Statistics, 23 states spend more per pupil in affluent districts than in high-poverty districts that contain a high concentrations of Black students; and the U.S. Department of Education’s Office of Civil Rights shows persistent and glaring opportunity gaps and racial inequities for Black students. Black students are less likely to attend schools that offer advanced coursework, less likely to be placed in gifted and talented programs, more likely to attend schools with less qualified educators, and employ law enforcement officers but no counselors.[/LIST]
          That is because liberal policies have caused white flight from the larger cities and ruined their tax base. And the majority of funding comes from local (city) sources. And these cities are now, and have been, run by Demoncrats.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            OK, so I'm looking at BLM's demands in another thread, and one of the biggies is reparations with regard to education.

            THIS PART ALONE is reason enough for blacks to be for school choice, which liberals vigorously oppose.... (bolding mine)
            • Education in the U.S. has always been a subversive act for Black people. During enslavement we were legally barred from the most basic forms of education including literacy. Post-Civil War, and even after the Brown v. Board of Education (1954) decision, Black people have been locked into segregated institutions that are underfunded, under resourced and often face severe health risk because of the decrepit conditions of their school buildings.
            • The current racial equity gap in education has roots that date back to enslavement. In fact, recent studies suggest that racial educational inequalities may be the most (measurable) enduring legacy of slavery. The same study also verified ongoing income inequality correlated to counties where slavery was prevalent.
            • The cradle-to-college pipeline has been systematically cut off for Black communities. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, 23 states spend more per pupil in affluent districts than in high-poverty districts that contain a high concentrations of Black students; and the U.S. Department of Education’s Office of Civil Rights shows persistent and glaring opportunity gaps and racial inequities for Black students. Black students are less likely to attend schools that offer advanced coursework, less likely to be placed in gifted and talented programs, more likely to attend schools with less qualified educators, and employ law enforcement officers but no counselors.

            Wow a list of "gimmee"'s - we want free education, free money to sit on our butts, blah blah blah. Why? Because our great-great-grandparents were treated badly.

            well boo-hoo, so were mine.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Here's a website that describes it: https://www.edchoice.org/school-choi...school-choice/



              We pay school taxes (even if we don't have kids in school) but only the public schools are funded with that money. "School Choice" would allow parents to choose the school they want their children to attend, as long as it meets certain standards.



              Why would it make things worse? People would vote with their feet, so to speak, and the funding dollars would follow. When the public schools see an exodus of students, they'll be forced to deal with the fact that there must be a reason people are fleeing.
              If all of the good things mentioned in that link are true, it would be hard to oppose school choice. But how would public schools be able to bring students back?
              Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

              "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

              "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                If all of the good things mentioned in that link are true, it would be hard to oppose school choice. But how would public schools be able to bring students back?
                Local school districts would have to make some tough choices about leadership - in most schools (in Texas, at least) things are pretty much controlled by the NEA and TEA - Teachers' Unions. Reader's Digest used to have a series on "Why Johnny Can't Read", and one of the factors was that the Teacher's Unions make it nearly impossible to fire bad teachers.

                Public School districts, in my opinion, tend to be top heavy in administration and support staff. Private schools have to be much more lean.

                If school choice were an option, local school boards would realize the need to make the public schools they represent much more competitive. That might mean getting rid of some of the upper head count, and focusing on paying good teachers a decent income, and culling bad teachers.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Here's a website that describes it: https://www.edchoice.org/school-choi...school-choice/



                  We pay school taxes (even if we don't have kids in school) but only the public schools are funded with that money. "School Choice" would allow parents to choose the school they want their children to attend, as long as it meets certain standards.



                  Why would it make things worse? People would vote with their feet, so to speak, and the funding dollars would follow. When the public schools see an exodus of students, they'll be forced to deal with the fact that there must be a reason people are fleeing.
                  The "as long as it meets certain standards" could potentially cause problems, reducing choice, reducing the trying out of non-standard ideas.


                  Another thought: if vouchers are for a specific amount of money, then do schools have an incentive to compete on price? I.e. would a school have any reason to reduce price below the amount of the voucher?

                  Would they be usable by homeschooling families? Would they get the full amount of the voucher?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Joel View Post
                    The "as long as it meets certain standards" could potentially cause problems, reducing choice, reducing the trying out of non-standard ideas.
                    True - I was often involved in the procurement of patrol vehicles and other equipment for our police department, and learned pretty quickly that the "grant writers" we hired could write the grant request to include or exclude just about anything we wanted or didn't want. At the time, for example, the desired police vehicle was a Ford, so the grant request was written so that the vehicle "must have factory provided dual exhaust", described in such a way as to limit choices to the Ford Crown Vic.

                    Another thought: if vouchers are for a specific amount of money, then do schools have an incentive to compete on price? I.e. would a school have any reason to reduce price below the amount of the voucher?
                    Hmmm... don't really know... I think it would be more of a case of "for your voucher, we provide this extra value" kind of thing. But I don't know.

                    Would they be usable by homeschooling families? Would they get the full amount of the voucher?
                    Don't know that, either - I would think that would require some kind of accountability, but good question.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Joel View Post
                      The "as long as it meets certain standards" could potentially cause problems, reducing choice, reducing the trying out of non-standard ideas.
                      But non-standard ideas could just as easily lead to failure. Shouldn't there be basic standards for the minimum amount of math, science, history, English, etc. that must be taught to all?
                      Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

                      "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

                      "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                        But non-standard ideas could just as easily lead to failure. Shouldn't there be basic standards for the minimum amount of math, science, history, English, etc. that must be taught to all?
                        Mossy would like the minimum standards for world geography to include that American students be able to identify Canada on the same continent as our own country. Extra points if they can identify at least three provinces.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Mossy would like the minimum standards for world geography to include that American students be able to identify Canada on the same continent as our own country. Extra points if they can identify at least three provinces.
                          Nowadays I wonder just what percentage of American students could even identify where the U.S. is on an unmarked map

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Nowadays I wonder just what percentage of American students could even identify where the U.S. is on an unmarked map
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              why don't they use those critical thinking skills they got in college?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                                But non-standard ideas could just as easily lead to failure. Shouldn't there be basic standards for the minimum amount of math, science, history, English, etc. that must be taught to all?
                                Sure there could be failures, but the fruits of failed ideas would be seen and identified, and the truth of the good ideas would be more evident in contrast. It would lead to popular avoidance of bad ideas and adoption of good ideas.

                                I'm not so sure about minimum amounts or why they "must". For example, I've seen some argue for physical sciences to be left for college, and they make a compelling argument. I've seen others argue that math should be significantly delayed, arguing much time is wasted teaching math to young children when older students starting from nothing can easily catch up to them with much less cost in time and effort. I've seen some argue against having so many subjects in modern schools, e.g. arguing that it is better to focus on achieving proficiency in one or two subjects (e.g. reading/writing and arithmetic for youngest students), with one argument being that result of the alternative is to teach students to be mediocrities in everything, as they are spread so thin. And then you have the un-schoolers, who don't think there is any "must" or minimum for any subject.

                                I don't agree with all of them, but it's not like they are unreasonable, and I've heard of success in each of these ideas. With limited time for education, there are a multitude of tradeoffs, and it's not clear that a set of minimums (determined by whom, according to what goals/principles?) handed down will be better than any alternatives. Even among people who agree there should be minimums, there is vast disagreement on what they should be, in quality and quantity.

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