Hebrews 6:1-6

[Ormly]

[quote=Ruht;2424019][quote=Ormly;2423996]

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." - II Peter 3:15&16


God bless.

That is indeed what I see you are doing. What puzzles me is, why?

[Ruht]

[QUOTE=Ormly;2424030][quote=Ruht;2424019]

That is indeed what I see you are doing. What puzzles me is, why?

Then you need to read the rest of that passage:

"Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. But grow in GRACE, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..." - II Peter 2:17&18


Does that say but to grow in "works," or to grow in "GRACE", after it mentions those who wrest the scriptures and to beware of such?

You interpret the Bible from a foundation of legalism, from a foundation of sand, if you believe in works for your righteousness; I'm sorry.

God bless.

[Ruht]

II Peter [b]3[/3]:17&18, that is.

[Ormly]

[quote=Ruht;2424060][quote=Ormly;2424030]

Then you need to read the rest of that passage:

"Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. But grow in GRACE, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..." - II Peter 2:17&18


Does that say but to grow in "works," or to grow in "GRACE", after it mentions those who wrest the scriptures and to beware of such?

You interpret the Bible from a foundation of legalism, from a foundation of sand, if you believe in works for your righteousness; I'm sorry.

God bless.

To the contrary and what you are UN-able to grasp, I interpret it from faith. You will never grasp that from your single dimensioned dogma. That is to be pitied if you are a sincere person.

[Ruht]

One more try:

II Peter 3:17&18, that is.

I see no way to edit anything in here, in front of me, with the software I have; sorry.

God bless.

[Ruht]

[QUOTE=Ormly;2424068][quote=Ruht;2424060]

To the contrary and what you are UN-able to grasp, I interpret it from faith. You will never grasp that from your single dimensioned dogma. That is to be pitied if you are a sincere person.

Works are most easy to "grasp;" it's what all false religions are based on and is what the natural man always "grasps," as even did Cain, the second Biblical lesson of this: Cain trusting in his own righteousness, his own works; whereas righteous Abel trusting in the righteousness of Christ; halleluiah.

Gee, if I try real hard to be good, then hopefully God might not condemn me.

The most basic of human ignorance towards God.

GRACE and all that accompanies it is what is impossible to grasp except through the Holy Spirit.

God bless

[John Goddard]

"And if by grace, it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." - Romans 11:6

It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE to be both by works and by grace, as both are PURE, and both can only be totally ONE OR THE OTHER; and it is by GRACE.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

So yes grace from faith is a free gift you can't work enough to ever deserve. But if you aren't doing good works then do you really have grace and thus faith?

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

So it's a tricky teaching. You have to be careful not to discourage the desire to do good works, because the desire is a result of grace through faith, and if you don't have that desire, you may not have the grace you think you have either.

[Ruht]

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

So yes grace from faith is a free gift you can't work enough to ever deserve. But if you aren't doing good works then do you really have grace and thus faith?

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

So it's a tricky teaching. You have to be careful not to discourage the desire to do good works, because the desire is a result of grace through faith, and if you don't have that desire, you may not have the grace you think you have either.

Is a "good work" something that one does to try and get something in return, or is a good work something that one does for free, out of love?

Trying to do works in order to gain justification from God is not a "good work," it is a dead work.

Those who are truly saved and born of the Holy Spirit constantly do good works by nature, not by duress of trying to get something from God out of fear that if they don't, they will be condemned.

A person born of love, born of the Holy Spirit, is good, and will therefore naturally produce good, righteous works forever.

Take away the law from a person not born of the Holy Spirit, and the fear of going to hell if they don't try to do good, and tell them they then can do whatever they want, and such a person will then do and try to do every sin under the sun.

Take away the same thing from a righteous person born of the Holy Spirit, and such a person will still continue to do righteous things, regardless, because they are good on the inside.

Please tell me: If it's written instruction that makes a person good, then how was Abel good? Noah? Abraham? Lot, etc? seeing how the law had not even been written yet at the time of all of their lives.

Gulp.


God bless.

[Ormly]

[quote=Ruht;2424077][quote=Ormly;2424068]

Works are most easy to "grasp;" it's what all false religions are based on and is what the natural man always "grasps," as even did Cain, the second Biblical lesson of this: Cain trusting in his own righteousness, his own works; whereas righteous Abel trusting in the righteousness of Christ; halleluiah.

Gee, if I try real hard to be good, then hopefully God might not condemn me.

The most basic of human ignorance towards God.

. . . . . . And the most twisted of interpretations. That is a sad commentary-testimony of the teaching you have received..

[Ruht]

[QUOTE=Ormly;2424101][quote=Ruht;2424077]

. . . . . . And the most twisted of interpretations. That is a sad commentary-testimony of the teaching you have received..

Says the self-righteous legalist.

I'll continue to trust in Christ and what he says and has done, though, if you don't mind.

God bless.

[John Goddard]

Is a "good work" something that one does to try and get something in return, or is a good work something that one does for free, out of love?

I don't believe there is such a thing as real altruism among most humans. Even the nice feeling that you are doing something purely out of love promises reward, so are you really doing it out of love, or for the reward of that good feeling that you are being so selfless and loving? Hard to say.

Trying to do works in order to gain justification from God is not a "good work," it is a dead work.

But you know God is probably going to be pleased if you do a good deed right? So that's another reward we can't help but expect.

This is why I don't think such interpretations demanding 100% faith, selflessness, altruism are really helpful, since you are creating a standard which in itself becomes another work, and am I to feel guilty if I don't live up to that standard and do that work you think I should do, being only human who inherently knows I will be rewarded with pleasure of feeling good, approval from God for other good works, etc?

It's a Catch-22.

I think the best way to put all this is, it doesn't matter why you do a good work, if you have faith and love accompanying it then it's probably not going to be an entirely dead work.

And even if it is dead, us people in Alcoholics Anonymous often say "fake it 'till you make it" meaning, even if you don't feel faith and love right now, it's not going to hurt anything if you try to good works in the meantime until you receive that grace from God as a free gift.

Dwelling on which comes first, the chicken or the egg, doesn't put food on the table.

[Ruht]

I don't believe there is such a thing as real altruism among most humans. Even the nice feeling that you are doing something purely out of love promises reward, so are you really doing it out of love, or for the reward of that good feeling that you are being so selfless and loving? Hard to say.



But you know God is probably going to be pleased if you do a good deed right? So that's another reward we can't help but expect.

This is why I don't think such interpretations demanding 100% faith, selflessness, altruism are really helpful, since you are creating a standard which in itself becomes another work, and am I to feel guilty if I don't live up to that standard and do that work you think I should do, being only human who inherently knows I will be rewarded with pleasure of feeling good, approval from God for other good works, etc?

It's a Catch-22.

I think the best way to put all this is, it doesn't matter why you do a good work, if you have faith and love accompanying it then it's probably not going to be an entirely dead work.

And even if it is dead, us people in Alcoholics Anonymous often say "fake it 'till you make it" meaning, even if you don't feel faith and love right now, it's not going to hurt anything if you try to good works in the meantime until you receive that grace from God as a free gift.

Dwelling on which comes first, the chicken or the egg, doesn't put food on the table.

It's not a "Catch-22," what I wrote and what the Bible reveals, it is truth, and it's the gospel.

A person born of the spirit of sin, who therefore is naturally a sinner, who will sin constantly by nature, who is only trying to do good things out of trying to get out of condemnation of God, is still a bad person, and all of the written things he is trying to fulfill does not change one iota how he truly is, and it will not mock or fool God.

Likewise, a person born of the Holy Spirit, who's had the spirit of sin removed from his heart and the Holy Spirit put into his heart instead, who therefore is naturally righteous and good, who will do righteous, truly good things by nature, who will still do good even though he has no fear of going to hell if he doesn't, is a TRULY good person, and THIS is the only true goodness that makes it with God concerning previously fallen humans, which is why God has said so and has only provided this as a person's way to salvation and righteousness.

And that's just the way it is. It is truth, and it can never be changed, defeated, removed, etc.

It is the gospel, and part of the entire, "hidden" message of the Bible, that which is "hidden" to the "natural man;" halleluiah.

God bless

[John Goddard]

It's not a "Catch-22," what I wrote and what the Bible reveals, it is truth, and it's the gospel.

...

...who is only trying to do good things out of trying to get out of condemnation of God, is still a bad person...

What if you are only trying to do good things because it makes you feel good you are doing them because you think you are born of the Holy Spirit? That's still a kind of selfish reason, that feeling of satisfaction you know you are doing the right thing the right way. In which case it becomes just another work. How do you know you aren't doing them for that reason?

Especially if that is the main focus of your teaching, to let everyone know you are you are a good person because you are doing things for the right reason.

...who will still do good even though he has no fear of going to hell if he doesn't (do good), is a TRULY good person...

Here's where you go fuzzy and seem to contradict Jesus.

Matthew 19:17-19 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So are you saying that if you don't do good, you can then do good and repent and continue following the commandments?

Or are you saying you can be saved once, then go on to be a Hitler never repenting always doing bad from then on, and still have no fear of Hell, and still be a TRULY good person?

Where are you drawing the line on this guaranteed salvation despite "doesn't do good" thing? Never?

[Ormly]

[quote=Ruht;2424106][quote=Ormly;2424101]

Says the self-righteous legalist.

I'll continue to trust in Christ and what he says and has done, though, if you don't mind.

God bless.

That is exactly what I am going to do, so why me call me self-righteous?

[Ruht]

What if you are only trying to do good things because it makes you feel good you are doing them because you think you are born of the Holy Spirit? That's still a kind of selfish reason, that feeling of satisfaction you know you are doing the right thing the right way. In which case it becomes just another work. How do you know you aren't doing them for that reason?

Especially if that is the main focus of your teaching, to let everyone know you are you are a good person because you are doing things for the right reason."

If you are born of the Holy Spirit, then you are good, and it then doesn't matter what anyone thinks, including yourself. You're good because God is good, and he lives in the heart of all the saved and makes them naturally good.

"

Here's where you go fuzzy and seem to contradict Jesus.

Matthew 19:17-19 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So are you saying that if you don't do good, you can then do good and repent and continue following the commandments?"

All saved "keep the commandments."

The righteousness of the commandments, which is love, the only true way to ever keep them; halleluiah.

Or are you saying you can be saved once, then go on to be a Hitler never repenting always doing bad from then on, and still have no fear of Hell, and still be a TRULY good person?

Where are you drawing the line on this guaranteed salvation despite "doesn't do good" thing? Never?

No one born of the Holy Spirit can "go on to be like Hitler," if Hitler was never saved.

And all of the unsaved are Hitler, if they're not good on the inside, no matter what one does on the outside.

If you're not born of love, born of the Holy Spirit, you're a murderer, just as the Bible says.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." - I John 3:15

You don't have to kill 6 million Jews to be like Hitler. All you have to do is not be saved, and you are exactly like him.

God cannot be fooled by the outward, fake act; halleluiah.

Putting on your righteousness makes no one truly righteous; you're still a murderer on the inside; halleluiah.

And are you sure that what Hitler did was not of God? I'm not trying to defend him nor say that what he did was right or of God, but just curious of what your answer might be, seeing how God himself drowned men, women and children by perhaps the millions in the great flood, and Harry Truman dropped 2 atomic bombs on 10's of thousands of Japanese men, women and children in WWII; etc, etc.

God bless.