Praying to the Saints? How does that work?

[One Bad Pig]

I'm kinda surprised a Molinist is asking this question.

1. God is outside of time.

2. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

3. Ergo, the saints are also outside of time.

Furthermore,

4. Heaven is not a place in the 4-dimensional universe; it is outside our known dimensions.

5. (This is where you may not agree) Prayer is a sacrament, which (along with NT Wright) I define as an instance where the material and spiritual realms intersect.

6. In other words, since they are close to us when we pray to them, yet are not constrained by time, there is no need for incredulity.

[Alan3838]

Geesh. . .

The thread was about saints in general. Yet you 'score points' by pointing out the bleeding obvious. Nice.

rusty

The thread may have been but the scripture wasn't. I didn't intend to sound critical.As far as "pointing out bleeding" I wasn't trying to kick you while you are down. I aplogize it came across that way.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Re 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. .

A decent translation might help:

5:8
And when he took the book,
the four beasts and twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb,
each having harps and golden bowls full of incense,
which are the prayers of Saints [holy ones].

It was the 24 elders and the four beast that held the golden vials that contained the prayers of the saints.Not the saints themselves.They praised the "Lamb that was slain who has redeemed us to God by thy blood." No mention of Mary here Tizz. Religion isn't nearly as important as faith.

So how do they come into possession of this incense in golden bowls, which ARE the prayers of the Holy Ones?? They are before the throne of the Lamb, my brother... They have music and prayers of saints IN THEIR POSSESSION before the throne of the Lamb...

This is intercession to God in behalf of the Saints and those for whom the Saints are praying...

It is hard to kick against the spikes...

Arsenios

[Jezz]

I just hope I never become a saint. I want to enjoy my retirement in peace.

With a selfish attitude like that, you're not in any danger of becoming a saint...

The saints aren't bothered by our prayers, because they love us and want to help us, and have nothing better to do than to love God and us, and to pray to God for us. And let's face it - there is nothing better that a person could be doing than loving God and loving and praying for their neighbour.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

There is nothing better that a person could be doing
than loving God
and loving and praying for their neighbour.

AMEN AMEN AMEN

Arsenios

[Trout]

3. Ergo, the saints are also outside of time.

If someone is outside of time, they cannot have a real relationship with someone inside of time.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

If someone is outside of time, they cannot have a real relationship with someone inside of time.

Tell it to God!

A.

[Sparko]

taken from here

rusty

Where does it say anything about them offering up OUR prayers to God? As far as I can tell it is their own prayers. I thought you all believed that they don't just pass our prayers on to God but they listen to our prayers and then intercede on our behalf to God with their OWN prayers? We have no need for them to pass OUR prayers to God, we can pray to God directly.

but besides that, I am not arguing IF they offer up prayers to God, but HOW can they, being finite beings, hear millions of prayers every day and actually listen to them, process them and then intercede for us with God in their own prayers.

I see no logical way that can work. If God makes them into omnipresent demigods so they can process all the prayers at once then they are no longer human but gods.

[Trout]

Tell it to God!

A.

I can, because God is inside of time.

[Darth Executor]

Why do you need to be an infinite being to hear a finite amount of prayers? In fact, why are you asking this question again when I answered it already.

[Darth Executor]

I can, because God is inside of time.

I'm interesting to hear why God is bound to a property of our physical universe and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Trout]

I'm interesting to hear why God is bound to a property of our physical universe and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I'd be interested to know that too, when you find someone who holds that view please PM me.

[Darth Executor]

I'd be interested to know that too, when you find someone who holds that view please PM me.

Send me a map of your house that includes furniture and I'll be more than happy to direct you to a mirror.

[Sparko]

Salvation is oneness with God, for we are a new creature in Him...

Earth-bound limitations no longer apply to Saints...

Did not Paul say that to live is Christ, and to die is gain??

We do not have any explanation of HOW it works...

Nor is one needed, unless you are a philosopher...

We just know that they do hear us and intercede in our behalf...

It is a simple empirical matter of the Faith...

You can test it yourself, IF you have Faith...

I remember Jesus not being able to do many miracles in his own home town... He was just the son of Mary and Joseph...

Arsenios

Presumably at one time the church decided that praying to the saints was a good idea. the bible never says or indicates that we should do this, so it was the early church that started this practice for some reason. So presumably they thought it was possible. surely they would have discussed it and asked the same questions?

Fred: Hey, I bet we could pray to the apostles and ask them to help us.
Barney: But they are dead.
Fred: That just means they are already closer to God so God will hear them better.
Barney: But they are not God they only can do one thing at a time like us. Finite beings and all.
Fred: Uh, hey don't worry about stuff like that. I am sure God will sort it all out for us.


I don't know about you but if I was Barney I would have told Fred that he is full of it and coming up with some wacky ideas not based on anything in the bible and his "let's just leave it up to God to figure out" was a cop out that sounds pretty much like what any cultist says when his doctrines are questioned.

I would need a good logical explanation and some biblical support before buying such a notion.

[Sparko]

I'm kinda surprised a Molinist is asking this question.

1. God is outside of time.

2. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

3. Ergo, the saints are also outside of time.

Furthermore,

4. Heaven is not a place in the 4-dimensional universe; it is outside our known dimensions.

5. (This is where you may not agree) Prayer is a sacrament, which (along with NT Wright) I define as an instance where the material and spiritual realms intersect.

6. In other words, since they are close to us when we pray to them, yet are not constrained by time, there is no need for incredulity.

I don't think we can live "outside of time" - we are finite beings and without time, we have no duration or causality. Our very nature and thinking processes require time. What you seem to be suggesting is the same thing that Darth Ex did, that God somehow gives them a LOT MORE time, so they have like a million years for every second that passes on earth so they can "catch up" but that sounds to me like a lot of extra work for something that God can handle all at once, since he is omnipotent and already KNOWS what you asked Mary for even before you asked. You are all making Mary slave away for eternity listening to your woes and interceding for you. Do you think that is a good way to treat the mother of Jesus? Turning her into a prayer processor?