Flood in 3500 B.C.

[John Goddard]

The inuit of northern Canada have been here for over 10 000 years and I have never heard them speak of any floods happening.

Try this book, HANDBOOK OF NATIVE AMERICAN MYTHOLOGY p97.

It tells of Inuit flood ended by a sorcerer.

[Macgawd]

I would suggest that you research this more thoroughly. There are commonalities that are impossible to dismiss. They all pretty much entail a flood that wipes out the human race, save a few. Most of them also entail saving animals aboard some sort of vessel instructed by a higher being or god.

I have researched it, and the flood myths of the various cultures have only superficial similarities. The fact that many of them entail a flood that wipes out the human race save but a few is simply part and parcel with this sort of mythological morality tale. What use is such a myth if it does not describe angry gods wiping out a rebellious or ungrateful humanity?

Imagine that. The bible story actually works historically with the data available.

Does it? Just because you've got a collection of flood myths from various cultures around the world that share superficial similarities doesn't mean that the Bible story is conveying a literal history. Besides, the story of Noah is contradictory in its own telling, and therefore unreliable as literal history. For example, Genesis 7 describes a contradictory version of events that could not have possibly been introduced until after Moses received the Law at Sinai.

I"m a Christian. Why would I not take the bible seriously?

I didn't ask you if you took it seriously. I asked you if you took it literally. I too am a Christian, and I take the story of the Flood very seriously. I just don't take it literally.

=M=

[seanD]

Macgawd, you're missing the whole point. Myth or no myth, somehow this story got to all these cultures. Now we have two ways this could have happened: 1) The biblical flood really did happen, 2) mankind really did start out in one localized area as the bible describes, sharing the same myths and beliefs -- then spread out for some inexplicable reason. Either one pretty much proves the bible's account of history and is contrary to Darwinism (unless Darwinism has an explanation for this, which you seem to have implied they do not).

[Macgawd]

Macgawd, you're missing the whole point. Myth or no myth, somehow this story got to all these cultures. Now we have two ways this could have happened: 1) The biblical flood really did happen, 2) mankind really did start out in one localized area as the bible describes, sharing the same myths and beliefs -- then spread out for some inexplicable reason.

First of all, you're making the baseless assumption that the various flood myths are merely variations of one single myth--you've no evidence to support such an assertion. Second, even if they were variations of an original myth, you've no evidence to suggest that the story of Noah is the original--in fact, several flood myths predate the oldest known copies of the Genesis account, and many scholars believe that the Genesis account was actually borrowed by the Israelites from the Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh.

And finally, your insistence on these two scenarios as the only possibilities is a false dichotomy, and not a very compelling one at that. The flood myths of the various cultures around the world share only superficial similarities, and when examined in depth, have very little in common beyond the ideas that water is wet, and you need at least two to tango.

As I posited in an earlier post, most ancient human civilizations were established along coastal regions or other areas in which there was easy access to an ample water supply, so it is not surprising that most cultures at one time or another may have experienced a catastrophic flood. Since there is no compelling geological evidence that suggests a single, world-wide flood, I've no rational reason to believe that the story related in Genesis is anything more than a local event--if it happened at all.

Either one pretty much proves the bible's account of history and is contrary to Darwinism (unless Darwinism has an explanation for this, which you seem to have implied they do not).

Another false dichotomy. You're assuming that the Biblical account must be literal history, while I contend that it does not have to be, in order to convey Truth.

=M=

[seanD]

MacGawd, first of all, you're not even getting the point. If you did, you would know that I'm not arguing which flood story is legitimate, or if any of the stories are legitimate, because it is IRRELEVANT to my main point -- the main point being the origin and distribution of this story to so many diverse cultures throughout the world.

Secondly, you are absolutely dead wrong about the commonalities, which shows me that you're either outright lying, or haven't researched it.

So I guess there's no point in this discussion any further.

[Macgawd]

MacGawd, first of all, you're not even getting the point. If you did, you would know that I'm not arguing which flood story is legitimate, or if any of the stories are legitimate, because it is IRRELEVANT to my main point -- the main point being the origin and distribution of this story to so many diverse cultures throughout the world.

I understand just fine. I'm simply responding that you're making assertions that aren't supported by any facts.

Secondly, you are absolutely dead wrong about the commonalities, which shows me that you're either outright lying, or haven't researched it.

Really? The Celtic flood myth tells that Heaven and Earth were great giants, and Heaven lay upon the Earth so that their children were crowded in the darkness between them. One of their sons led his brothers in cutting up Heaven into many pieces. From his skull they made the firmament. His spilling blood caused a great flood which killed all humans except a single pair, who were saved in a ship made by a beneficent Titan. The waters settled in hollows to become the oceans. Other than a flood that kills everyone but a pair of humans who escape in a boat, there's nothing here that's suggests any link at all to the Genesis account.

The Greco-Roman account states that Zeus decided to punish humanity for its evil ways. The other gods grieved at the destruction because there would no longer be anyone left to worship them, but Zeus promised a new race of miraculous origin. He was going to use thunderbolts when he remembered one of Fate's decrees: that a time would come when sea and earth and dome of the sky would blaze up, and the massive structure of the universe would collapse in ruins. With Poseidon's help, he caused storm and earthquake to flood every part of the land except the summit of Mount Parnassus. When Zeus crushed the hanging clouds in his hand, there was a loud crash, and sheets of rain fell from heaven. The rivers began rushing to the sea. When Neptune struck the earth with his trident, the rivers raced across the plains. Sea and earth could no longer be distinguished, and all was sea without any shores, covering every living being except for one fortunate pair, Deucalion and Pyrrha. Earlier, Deucalion and Pyrrha had consulted the oracleThemis. She warned of a future flood, and they prepared by acquiring a boat. In time, their boat ran aground on the summit of Mount Parnassus. Recognizing their piety, Zeus allowed them to live and withdrew the waters. It was then that Deucalion and Pyrrha remembered the other oracle given by Themis: to repopulate the world by throwing "behind you the bones of your great mother." Pyrrha didn't want to injure her mother's ghost by disturbing her bones. They decided that the "bones" were stones in the body of the earth ("Great Mother"). They threw the stones, which became humans; men of the stones thrown by Deucalion; women, of those cast by Pyrrha. Animals were produced by earth of its own volition.

A version of an Australian Aborigine flood myth says that Djunban was hunting kangaroo rat with his magic boomerang, but he hit his sister Mandjia instead, wounding her leg. After this, he taught his people how to make rain. The next day Mandjia died from her injury. Djunban performed the rain-making ceremony again, but he was grieving his sister and not concentrating on his task, and the rain came too heavily. He tried to warn his people, but the flood came and washed away all the people and their possessions. This one is completely dissimilar to the Genesis account.

A flood myth from Thailand goes like this: A brother and sister, warned of the upcoming flood by a mouse, sealed themselves inside a drum, and emerged again after the flood receded. They looked far and wide for mates, but they were the only survivors. A malcoha cuckoo sang to them, "Brother and sister should embrace one another." After seven years, their child was born as a gourd. Later, hearing noises from the gourd, they burnt a hole in its shell, and people of the different races came out, first Rumeet, then Kammu, Thai, Westerner, and Chinese.

And my personal favorite--Scandinavian: Oden, Vili, and Ve fought and slew the great ice giant Ymir, and icy water from his wounds drowned most of the Rime Giants. The giant Bergelmir escaped, with his wife and children, on a boat. Ymir's body became the world we live on.

Native American flood myths are even more esoteric. The Navajo flood myth says that the gods expelled the Insect People from the first world for their sins, by sending a wall of water from all directions. The Insect People flew up into the second world. Later, in the fourth world, descendants of these people were likewise punished. They escaped the floodwaters by climbing into a fast-growing reed. Cicada dug an entrance into the fifth world, where people live today.

There are hundreds of flood myths from around the world, with very few actually sharing anything in common with the Genesis account, and those that do are either borrowed due to cultural similarities and exchanges, or have been corrupted over time by Judeo-Christian influence.

=M=

[oxmixmudd]

Try this book, HANDBOOK OF NATIVE AMERICAN MYTHOLOGY p97.

It tells of Inuit flood ended by a sorcerer.

Wow- did you read all the stories in that except? I am one who tends towards a local flood explanation, but these stories all parallel the Noah account in many uncanny ways. If there was not western influence driving these stories, I do not see how they can be explained with the simple 'lots of people experience floods' line. A more logical explanation in my mind is that somehow, someway, these stories have their source in either the same story or the same event that spawned Epic of Gilgamesh/Noah's flood.


Jim

[oxmixmudd]

I understand just fine. I'm simply responding that you're making assertions that aren't supported by any facts.



Really? The Celtic flood myth tells that Heaven and Earth were great giants, and Heaven lay upon the Earth so that their children were crowded in the darkness between them. One of their sons led his brothers in cutting up Heaven into many pieces. From his skull they made the firmament. His spilling blood caused a great flood which killed all humans except a single pair, who were saved in a ship made by a beneficent Titan. The waters settled in hollows to become the oceans. Other than a flood that kills everyone but a pair of humans who escape in a boat, there's nothing here that's suggests any link at all to the Genesis account.

The Greco-Roman account states that Zeus decided to punish humanity for its evil ways. The other gods grieved at the destruction because there would no longer be anyone left to worship them, but Zeus promised a new race of miraculous origin. He was going to use thunderbolts when he remembered one of Fate's decrees: that a time would come when sea and earth and dome of the sky would blaze up, and the massive structure of the universe would collapse in ruins. With Poseidon's help, he caused storm and earthquake to flood every part of the land except the summit of Mount Parnassus. When Zeus crushed the hanging clouds in his hand, there was a loud crash, and sheets of rain fell from heaven. The rivers began rushing to the sea. When Neptune struck the earth with his trident, the rivers raced across the plains. Sea and earth could no longer be distinguished, and all was sea without any shores, covering every living being except for one fortunate pair, Deucalion and Pyrrha. Earlier, Deucalion and Pyrrha had consulted the oracleThemis. She warned of a future flood, and they prepared by acquiring a boat. In time, their boat ran aground on the summit of Mount Parnassus. Recognizing their piety, Zeus allowed them to live and withdrew the waters. It was then that Deucalion and Pyrrha remembered the other oracle given by Themis: to repopulate the world by throwing "behind you the bones of your great mother." Pyrrha didn't want to injure her mother's ghost by disturbing her bones. They decided that the "bones" were stones in the body of the earth ("Great Mother"). They threw the stones, which became humans; men of the stones thrown by Deucalion; women, of those cast by Pyrrha. Animals were produced by earth of its own volition.

A version of an Australian Aborigine flood myth says that Djunban was hunting kangaroo rat with his magic boomerang, but he hit his sister Mandjia instead, wounding her leg. After this, he taught his people how to make rain. The next day Mandjia died from her injury. Djunban performed the rain-making ceremony again, but he was grieving his sister and not concentrating on his task, and the rain came too heavily. He tried to warn his people, but the flood came and washed away all the people and their possessions. This one is completely dissimilar to the Genesis account.

A flood myth from Thailand goes like this: A brother and sister, warned of the upcoming flood by a mouse, sealed themselves inside a drum, and emerged again after the flood receded. They looked far and wide for mates, but they were the only survivors. A malcoha cuckoo sang to them, "Brother and sister should embrace one another." After seven years, their child was born as a gourd. Later, hearing noises from the gourd, they burnt a hole in its shell, and people of the different races came out, first Rumeet, then Kammu, Thai, Westerner, and Chinese.

And my personal favorite--Scandinavian: Oden, Vili, and Ve fought and slew the great ice giant Ymir, and icy water from his wounds drowned most of the Rime Giants. The giant Bergelmir escaped, with his wife and children, on a boat. Ymir's body became the world we live on.

Native American flood myths are even more esoteric. The Navajo flood myth says that the gods expelled the Insect People from the first world for their sins, by sending a wall of water from all directions. The Insect People flew up into the second world. Later, in the fourth world, descendants of these people were likewise punished. They escaped the floodwaters by climbing into a fast-growing reed. Cicada dug an entrance into the fifth world, where people live today.

There are hundreds of flood myths from around the world, with very few actually sharing anything in common with the Genesis account, and those that do are either borrowed due to cultural similarities and exchanges, or have been corrupted over time by Judeo-Christian influence.

=M=

As I said, I am not a global flood advocate, but I think you need to justify the last claim. That may be what you wish to be true, it could, I suppose, even be true, but you'd need to document that. As far as I know, many of these stories are uncorrupted, they are as they were found when missionaries or explorers arrived, preserved by oral retelling or written down if the culture was advanced enough.

One thing most of these legends have in common: a very few survivors, usually in a boat or raft, the waters coming with a lot of rain, and the waters rising to the point they covered all or most visible land. IT is this last part that is unique and that draws the similarities together. Very few natural floods actually cover everything visible. Everthing under water for as far as the eye can see. That is what is unusual here. Especially the comment we see over and over: even the mountains.

It seems to me these stories either are sourced somehow from the same culture OR from some massive event large enough to have effected the ancient stories and cultures of a great many of the peoples of the Earth (this would point to a truly ancient story AND a common origin for much of mankind). I don't buy the 'every culture experienced floods because people tended to settle near waterways line.' There are too many diverse stories with the common elements of few survivors/boat/everything visible submerged. Again, how many major floods were actually big enough to be remembered that way? And you want most cultures to have all experienced the same as independent events?


Jim

[John Goddard]

Wow- did you read all the stories in that except? I am one who tends towards a local flood explanation, but these stories all parallel the Noah account in many uncanny ways. If there was not western influence driving these stories, I do not see how they can be explained with the simple 'lots of people experience floods' line. A more logical explanation in my mind is that somehow, someway, these stories have their source in either the same story or the same event that spawned Epic of Gilgamesh/Noah's flood.


Jim

Occam's Razor says there is a common origin.

[Macgawd]

One thing most of these legends have in common: a very few survivors, usually in a boat or raft, the waters coming with a lot of rain, and the waters rising to the point they covered all or most visible land. IT is this last part that is unique and that draws the similarities together.

There's nothing surprising about this at all, and is certainly not proof that they're all descended from a single proto-flood source material. Besides, who could imagine that a flood would involve lots of people drowning, crops and cities destroyed, with only a few survivors making it through. Who would also guess that one could only survive a flood by floating on something like a boat? Dang--it must mean that all these myths stem from a single story! /sarcasm

Very few natural floods actually cover everything visible. Everthing under water for as far as the eye can see. That is what is unusual here. Especially the comment we see over and over: even the mountains.

Have you read some of these stories? There's also no such thing as "Insect People", "giants", or children born as gourds. These are mythological tales, Jim--they're not history.

Again, how many major floods were actually big enough to be remembered that way? And you want most cultures to have all experienced the same as independent events?

Lacking any geological evidence for a Great Flood, and lacking any credible evidence to link the various flood myths from around the world to a single proto-flood myth, then the only rational conclusion is that these stories are the product of their own civilizations.

=M=

[oxmixmudd]

Occam's Razor says there is a common origin.

I would agree. What that origin is can be debated, but I have a hard time thinking the common element of a flood that covered all the hills/mountains would be the general outcome of multiple disparate cultures experiencing multiple disparate floodings of more normal stock - though, as I said, I am not a global flood advocate. I do, however, think there was some kind of major local flood which fits the Bible's description, and I tend to think it may be an event not yet discovered, though further in the past than expected. I would guess that it being much further in the past, and peoples migrating out from it and intermingling with other cultures resulted in the common elements being in so many stories.



Jim

[John Goddard]

I would agree. What that origin is can be debated, but I have a hard time thinking the common element of a flood that covered all the hills/mountains would be the general outcome of multiple disparate cultures experiencing multiple disparate floodings of more normal stock - though, as I said, I am not a global flood advocate. I do, however, think there was some kind of major local flood which fits the Bible's description, and I tend to think it may be an event not yet discovered, though further in the past than expected. I would guess that it being much further in the past, and peoples migrating out from it and intermingling with other cultures resulted in the common elements being in so many stories.

Jim

I am local flood too, maybe where the Persian Gulf is now.

[oxmixmudd]

There's nothing surprising about this at all, and is certainly not proof that they're all descended from a single proto-flood source material. Besides, who could imagine that a flood would involve lots of people drowning, crops and cities destroyed, with only a few survivors making it through. Who would also guess that one could only survive a flood by floating on something like a boat? Dang--it must mean that all these myths stem from a single story! /sarcasm

Yes - the boat/small number of survivors would be common even with a disparate origin. A person warned of said flood who built a boat and saved livestock would not, nor would the idea the flood was large enough to rise above all or all but the largest of the locally visible hills or mountains. The kinds of natural events that can produce such floods are things like large comet strike/mega volcanic landslide induced mega tsunamis, or large scale breaches like the Mediterranean infilling or Black Sea infilling, or perhaps even the glacial lake/ice dam breaches we know of at the end of the last ice age.

Have you read some of these stories? There's also no such thing as "Insect People", "giants", or children born as gourds. These are mythological tales, Jim--they're not history.

I don't think they can be dismissed so easily. Mythologies like this - built around large natural catastrophies - often have their origins in real events interpreted through the superstition of the affected culture. They are told and retold, generation to generation and embellished.

ETA: and while some contain many wildly fantastic elements, others do not. It is those others that get me going

Lacking any geological evidence for a Great Flood, and lacking any credible evidence to link the various flood myths from around the world to a single proto-flood myth, then the only rational conclusion is that these stories are the product of their own civilizations.

=M=

Well, we don't exactly lack geological evidence for events that could be the sources of these legends. What we lack is geological evidence for a single global event of sufficient magnitude to fit a literal and non-phenomenal reading of Genesis 7. But there is good evidence for major catastrophic events in the last 100,000 years, and we discover more each decade. My hypothesis is that there was a major flooding event of some sort that produced Noah's flood/Epic of Gilgamesh, and that it was far bigger than any river flood, affecting a very large area - large enough to be perceived by its inhabitants as affecting 'all the land', and somehow has been incorporated into many cultures worldwide. That the impact of this was Early enough, and the migratory patterns and direction of culture flow sufficient, that it became essentially known world wide.



Jim

[seanD]

I would agree. What that origin is can be debated, but I have a hard time thinking the common element of a flood that covered all the hills/mountains would be the general outcome of multiple disparate cultures experiencing multiple disparate floodings of more normal stock - though, as I said, I am not a global flood advocate. I do, however, think there was some kind of major local flood which fits the Bible's description, and I tend to think it may be an event not yet discovered, though further in the past than expected. I would guess that it being much further in the past, and peoples migrating out from it and intermingling with other cultures resulted in the common elements being in so many stories.



Jim

More than proving an actual flood occurred, I think this confirms the fact that mankind was once in a localized area, and then spread out, using different ways to communicate to each other afterwards for some inexplicable reason. This is what the bible claims, and it fits historically. Conversely, I think this presents a problem to Darwinists to explain this phenomenon from an evolutionary standpoint, because these shared traditions make it obvious that mankind at that point was sophisticated enough to preserve such traditions.

[seanD]

I am local flood too, maybe where the Persian Gulf is now.

I believe the flood was universal, but didn't cover everything. I believe that mankind was localized in an area at sea level, which was once not covered by sea water. Wouldn't it make sense that as mankind spread out, they would have naturally found higher elevations a little more safer?