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Thread: Someone's Printing up Souls

  1. #11
    tWebber whag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    I avoid the repugnant characteristics of both models and just trust that God can sort everything out much better than I can.

    No idea. Power of suggestion and incredible imaginations of young children? But, in the end, who knows?

    I've known a couple of exorcists and both of them told me its best by far to avoid dwelling on the paranormal or demonic. Just live your life, love others, trust God, and do your best.
    You believe that demons interact with human beings? Discussing it doesn't necessarily mean dwelling on it.

  2. #12
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whag View Post
    You believe that demons interact with human beings? Discussing it doesn't necessarily mean dwelling on it.
    I don't really know about that kind of stuff.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  3. #13
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    I am merely alluding to the importance and eternal significance of who we are and what we do from the perspective of God. I trust that God is in no way limited in his wisdom and judgment by limited views of "complying with specific religious beliefs and sometimes complying with specific rituals." I am sure that God certainly does "take into consideration the diverse nature of human belief and the responsibility for the nature of human belief and actions."
    Merely alluding is insufficient. I would be willing to accept I trust that God is in no way limited in his wisdom and judgment by limited views of "complying with specific religious beliefs and sometimes complying with specific rituals." I am sure that God certainly does "take into consideration the diverse nature of human belief and the responsibility for the nature of human belief and actions." Unfortunately this eliminates the possible of the existence of Hell as it is believed in pretty much all the different religious perspectives, such as Celtic, Nordic, Germanic, Christian and other belief sysems. In all these belief systems the concept of Hell is permanent condition or place of unimaginable suffering, because one dies without achieving nor complying to religious obligation or behavior.

    Personally I believe the concept of Hell remains an ancient superstitious belief with the purpose of social control based on fear.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. #14
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Merely alluding is insufficient.
    Insufficient in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I would be willing to accept I trust that God is in no way limited in his wisdom and judgment by limited views of "complying with specific religious beliefs and sometimes complying with specific rituals." I am sure that God certainly does "take into consideration the diverse nature of human belief and the responsibility for the nature of human belief and actions." Unfortunately this eliminates the possible [possibility] of the existence of Hell as it is believed in pretty much all the different religious perspectives, such as Celtic, Nordic, Germanic, Christian and other belief sys[t]ems. In all these belief systems the concept of Hell is permanent condition or place of unimaginable suffering, because one dies without achieving nor complying to religious obligation or behavior.
    Perhaps you should better acquaint yourself with the ancient Jewish idea of purgatory, in which it seems Jesus also believed.

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Personally I believe the concept of Hell remains an ancient superstitious belief with the purpose of social control based on fear.
    Do you think Jesus was trying to exercise social control over people?
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  5. #15
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Perhaps you should better acquaint yourself with the ancient Jewish idea of purgatory, in which it seems Jesus also believed.
    Where?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  6. #16
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Where?
    "... until you have paid the last mite." Of course this verse can be interpreted differently. Even the 'where worm does not die' quote from Isaiah was used in the Jewish tradition alongside belief in purgatory.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  7. #17
    tWebber whag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    I don't really know about that kind of stuff.
    The Bible says demons interact with human beings.

  8. #18
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whag View Post
    The Bible says demons interact with human beings.
    Sure does, but, in the immortal words of Ira Gershwin, everything that you're liable, to read in the Bible, it ain't necessarily so. Some things need to be interpreted in the light of historical and cultural contexts that may or may not apply in today's context, eg, most people today no longer believe that epilepsy is caused by demons. That is not to take such things lightly, but neither in an overly simplistic manner.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  9. #19
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Even the 'where worm does not die' quote from Isaiah was used in the Jewish tradition alongside belief in purgatory.
    Where can I read more about this?
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  10. #20
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Where can I read more about this?
    I first came across early Jewish discussions of some kind of purgatory in the Talmud, in the teachings of the followers of Shammai. While Jesus is typically considered a Hillelite, especially on account of his version of the golden rule (but note the significant positive twist), I don't think he is so easily classified and note his agreement with the Shammaites regarding their important teaching against divorce specifically and the much stricter morality in the world to come in general. That Jewish belief in purgatory predates Christianity and the Talmud is also confirmed by 2 Maccabees, regardless of whether or not one holds it to be canonical. Some of the specific references can be found in the article in the Jewish Encyclopedia here.
    Last edited by robrecht; 08-21-2016 at 09:05 PM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  11. Amen KingsGambit, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.

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