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Someone's Printing up Souls

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  • #31
    So if people today used to be someone famous like Lincoln, then of course, that means Lincoln was someone famouser (that is a new word) like maybe George Washington, who was probably Genghis Kahn, who was Moses, who was Adam.

    But the only way to really know is to ask the only soul who was there at the beginning and has never recycled.








    Mossy? Can you 'splain all this to us?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Not necessarily. They could just be making everything up to get attention.
      Watch the profiles of these cases. The one about the child who recalled being a WWII pilot has too many strange coincidences that could be chalked up to mere attention getting. In these cases, you consider it's demonic influence?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by whag View Post
        Watch the profiles of these cases. The one about the child who recalled being a WWII pilot has too many strange coincidences that could be chalked up to mere attention getting. In these cases, you consider it's demonic influence?
        Do you have another viable option besides actual reincarnation?
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Do you have another viable option besides actual reincarnation?
          I don't know. My mathematical objection is answered in the linked explanation.

          http://cdn2.collective-evolution.com...ploads/2016/05

          Though that's a wild hypothesis, I'd opt for reincarnation over demons interacting with children. I consider the latter a wilder hypothesis.

          Comment


          • #35
            I still point to Bridey Murphy and the explanation found for her "reincarnation."
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by whag View Post
              I don't know. My mathematical objection is answered in the linked explanation.

              http://cdn2.collective-evolution.com...ploads/2016/05

              Though that's a wild hypothesis, I'd opt for reincarnation over demons interacting with children. I consider the latter a wilder hypothesis.
              Whatever you like. I've had interactions with someone who was demon-possessed, so I can personally vouch for their existence. I realize that won't convince you, but I figured I'd cop to full disclosure.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Whatever you like. I've had interactions with someone who was demon-possessed, so I can personally vouch for their existence. I realize that won't convince you, but I figured I'd cop to full disclosure.
                Would it convince me if I saw it? For instance, I see the kid who claims he was a WWII pilot and acknowledge his behavior is uncanny, but I'm not necessarily sold on the concept of soul transfer. Similarly, I might acknowledge your friend exhibited scary behavior, but that doesn't naturally lead to my belief that demons overtake people.

                I do understand how you'd have to conclude that demons explain the hard cases. I just don't see how God allows demons to toy with kids' minds on such a level. I find the idea of the devil having tenants' rights weird and anthropomorphic. If that's what it has to do with, this would make an interesting discussion.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by whag View Post
                  Would it convince me if I saw it? For instance, I see the kid who claims he was a WWII pilot and acknowledge his behavior is uncanny, but I'm not necessarily sold on the concept of soul transfer. Similarly, I might acknowledge your friend exhibited scary behavior, but that doesn't naturally lead to my belief that demons overtake people.

                  I do understand how you'd have to conclude that demons explain the hard cases. I just don't see how God allows demons to toy with kids' minds on such a level. I find the idea of the devil having tenants' rights weird and anthropomorphic. If that's what it has to do with, this would make an interesting discussion.
                  I don't simply "conclude that demons explain the hard cases." It is certainly not my default explanation for unexplained behavior. That said, there is simply too much evidence for me to ignore, from the last 2,000 years, for me to reject the possibility out of hand. I don't think it would convince you, because AFAICS your skepticism is invincible.

                  I'm not sure what you mean by 'tenants' rights' and have no idea how you find them anthropomorphic.

                  ETA:

                  Here is an extract from a paper by Dr. Oscar Skarsaune on what the early church believed:

                  Source: Oscar Skarsaune

                  (1) The first [element of the church's beliefs] is the thought that the gods of the Gentiles are demons. The roots of this conception must be sought in the Old Testament, where the gods of the Gentiles are not denied existence, but definitely divine quality. They are nulities that do not have any power than can be compared with that of Yahweh. They exist, but they are not God. The gods of the peoples are ælilim, it is said in Psalm 96,5. This word may in the Old Testament stand in a synonymous parallelism with the word “idol”, but also to sjedim, demons (Deut. 32:17; Psalm 106:37), and se’irim, evil spirits (Lev. 17:7; 2 Chron. 11:15; Isa. 13:21; 32:14). In Deut. 32:17 we read for example about the apostate Israel: “They sacrificed to demons who were not God, to gods whom they have not known”.

                  Both in the Old Testament and in later Judaism one may observe two approaches in thepolemic against pagan cult. Partly, a “rational” polemic against the images: It is ridiculous to pray to dead things which cannot even take care of themselves, and which are made by humans (cf. Jer 10:3-5; Isa. 44:12-20; the apocryphal book Solomon’s Wisdom, 13:10-19). But partly there is also a polemic to the effect that the Gentiles actually relate to real powers in their cult, but these powers are demonic. “For all the gods of the peoples are demons”, is the short and pointed statement in the Septuagint version of Psalm 96:7. This text is frequently quoted already by Justin Martyr, and later by one church father after the other. Already the apostle Paul seems to presuppose this thought in 1. Cor. 10, where he warns the Christians against participating in meals sacrificed to idols: “”What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons” (1. Cor. 10:19-20, supposedly we find here an allusion to Deut. 32:17).

                  (2) The second element in this set of thoughts is the idea that when people worship these demons in the pagan cult, and want to befriend them, then they risk to be possessed by them. Possession is a phenomenon of paganism; it has connection with pagan worship. Possession does not occur in the church among baptized people.

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  Last edited by One Bad Pig; 08-26-2016, 02:49 PM.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    I don't simply "conclude that demons explain the hard cases."* It is certainly not my default explanation for unexplained behavior.
                    Your theory described in post #5 followed the example of the grown lawyer. I presumed you applied your theory to his case.

                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    That said, there is simply too much evidence for me to ignore, from the last 2,000 years, for me to reject the possibility out of hand.*
                    Can you reject out of hand the possibility that Satan possesses children or plants fake memories in their heads?

                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    I don't think it would convince you, because AFAICS your skepticism is invincible.
                    Better to have a conversation than judge each other as entrenched in our respective views. The most famous Christian foes appeared to have invincible skepticism until they didn't. See Paul and C.S. Lewis.


                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    I'm not sure what you mean by 'tenants' rights' and have no idea how you find them anthropomorphic.
                    Because Adam transfered land rights to Satan, every human being is under his dominion. I thought that was the traditional belief regarding why demons have free access to human beings and their minds.

                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    ETA:

                    Here is an extract from a paper by Dr. Oscar Skarsaune on what the early church believed:

                    Source: Oscar Skarsaune

                    (1) The first [element of the church's beliefs] is the thought that the gods of the Gentiles are demons. The roots of this conception must be sought in the Old Testament, where the gods of the Gentiles are not denied existence, but definitely divine quality. They are nulities that do not have any power than can be compared with that of Yahweh. They exist, but they are not God. The gods of the peoples are ælilim, it is said in Psalm 96,5. This word may in the Old Testament stand in a synonymous parallelism with the word “idol”, but also to sjedim, demons (Deut. 32:17; Psalm 106:37), and se’irim, evil spirits (Lev. 17:7; 2 Chron. 11:15; Isa. 13:21; 32:14). In Deut. 32:17 we read for example about the apostate Israel: “They sacrificed to demons who were not God, to gods whom they have not known”.

                    Both in the Old Testament and in later Judaism one may observe two approaches in thepolemic against pagan cult. Partly, a “rational” polemic against the images: It is ridiculous to pray to dead things which cannot even take care of themselves, and which are made by humans (cf. Jer 10:3-5; Isa. 44:12-20; the apocryphal book Solomon’s Wisdom, 13:10-19). But partly there is also a polemic to the effect that the Gentiles actually relate to real powers in their cult, but these powers are demonic. “For all the gods of the peoples are demons”, is the short and pointed statement in the Septuagint version of Psalm 96:7. This text is frequently quoted already by Justin Martyr, and later by one church father after the other. Already the apostle Paul seems to presuppose this thought in 1. Cor. 10, where he warns the Christians against participating in meals sacrificed to idols: “”What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons” (1. Cor. 10:19-20, supposedly we find here an allusion to Deut. 32:17).

                    (2) The second element in this set of thoughts is the idea that when people worship these demons in the pagan cult, and want to befriend them, then they risk to be possessed by them.Possession is a phenomenon of paganism; it has connection with pagan worship. Possession does not occur in the church among baptized people.

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    In the case of the children with uncanny memories of past identity, they weren't worshipping Satan. These are much harder cases than the lawyer.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by whag View Post

                      Because Adam transferred land rights to Satan, . . .
                      Respectfully, where are you getting this idea from?
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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                      • #41

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Respectfully, where are you getting this idea from?
                          Adrift said something akin to it here:

                          "God gave dominion over the earth to mankind, but Adam gave up this dominion through disobedience. The one who deceived Adam inherited his dominion, and became (as we find in the New Testament) 'the ruler of this world', 'the prince of the power of the air', and "the god of this age.'"

                          IOW, Satan has access to the creatures of earth over which he has dominion, which I assume means to possess human beings and plant "reincarnation-y" thoughts in their heads. See post #5.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Do you have another viable option besides actual reincarnation?
                            I don't understand this question when you've already provided one. Making things up to get attention is viable. So is some sort of hypnotism stuff similar to what Jed keeps referencing.

                            Demonic possession is as much a non-starter as reincarnation is, even within a Christian perspective where demons exist and influence. Demons are a nice ad hoc explanation with no real substance behind the claim except 'could be'.
                            I'm not here anymore.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by whag View Post
                              My sister is off the deep end with whacky religious beliefs, conspiracies, and UFO theories. She recently sent me a bunch of news reports on kids who have uncanny memories of being another person, and it's kinda thrown me for a loop. I figured I'd watch a couple clips to kill some time and because I figured I could easily respond. I was kind of surprised that I found it hard to explain.
                              If it's hard to explain, it's only because of the purely anecdotal nature of the claims combined with complete inability to follow up on it. You don't know anything about the circumstances except for what the parents have said. You couldn't even show that the kids said these things, let alone did so without any coaching.
                              I'm not here anymore.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                                If it's hard to explain, it's only because of the purely anecdotal nature of the claims combined with complete inability to follow up on it. You don't know anything about the circumstances except for what the parents have said. You couldn't even show that the kids said these things, let alone did so without any coaching.
                                And it seems like one of the grandparents is an active promoter of reincarnation, so there's already the power of suggestion from at least one significant person in the child's and parent's environment.
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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