99 names and "nothing like him". Koranic contradiction.

[Dan Zebiri]

When you show that you cannot even differentiate between whats consitituted judicially as Sharia, from what was abrogated and abrogating wahy given to muhamad (as he claimed), then your knowledge of islam is worse than pathetic.

Really? DID the 'necessary steps taken actually did preserve an accurate reading' like you propogandize??!? Lets see what the actual history records:

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 514, p. 482; book 61

Narrated Umar bin Al-Khattab:

I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listen to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Surat which I heard you reciting ?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me". I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle taught it to me in a different way from yours". So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!". On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him (Umar) recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way", and added, "Recite, O Umar", I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easier for you."

So, it is evident that even the recitiations of the quran were not standard among the believers. There were seven different recitations actually.

The companions (sahabah) of Muhammad made their own collections of the Qur'an and taught the Qur'an to their students. However these Qur'ans were not the same and confusion soon arose amongst the early Muslims as to what was the right way to recite the Qur'an. The next two hadiths give examples of this confusion:

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 468, p. 441-442; book 60
Narrated Ibrahim:

The companions of 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) came to Abi Darda', (and before they arrived at his home), he looked for them and found them. Then he asked them,: "Who among you can recite (Qur'an) as 'Abdullah recites it?" They replied, "All of us." He asked, "Who among you knows it by heart?" They pointed at 'Alqama. Then he asked Alqama. "How did you hear 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud reciting Surat Al-Lail (The Night)?" Alqama recited:
'By the male and the female.' Abu Ad-Darda said,

"I testify that I heard me Prophet reciting it likewise, but these people want me to recite it:--

'And by Him Who created male and female.' But by Allah, I will not follow them."

The above hadith shows that Muslims from different regions disagreed as to the way a particular verse should be read. Those who learnt the Qur'an from 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said surah 92:1-3 as 'By the male and the female.' while other Muslims said, 'And by Him Who created male and female.' Thus the early Muslims had not all memorized the Qur'an the same way.

We see this problem again in the following hadith.

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 527, p. 489; book 61

Narrated Ibn Abbas:
Umar said, `Ubai (Ubayy) was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites'. Ubai says, `I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever'.
But Allah said: `None of our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar.' (Qur'an 2:106).

This hadith clearly shows that the Companions of Muhammad disagreed over which verses were abrogated/removed. Here we see that Ubai continued to recite the Qur'an with verses that the other Companions considered to have now been abrogated/removed. It seems that Ubai refused to accept that the verses had been abrogated for he says: I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever. The hadith then quotes surah 2:106 to explain that this was an example of abrogation. The result, however, was that the Companions recited the Qur'an differently, for Ubai continued to recite the abrogated verses.

The above two hadiths record how Masud and Ubai recited the Qur'an differently to other Muslims. We have already seen that these two men were recommended by Muhammad as men worthy to learn the Qur'an from. However since their collections of the Qur'ans were not the same this caused problems for the Muslims who learned the Qur'an from them. The Muslim scholar Labib as-Said records that:

"The Syrians," we are told, "contended with the `Iraqis, the former following the reading of Ubayy ibn Ka`b, the latter that of `Abd Allah ibn Mas'ud, each accusing the other of unbelief" (Labib as-Said, The Recited Koran: A History of the First Recorded Version, tr. B. Weis, et al., Princeton, New Jersey: The Darwin Press, 1975, p. 23) [Thanks to Samuel Green for the above citation!]

So, there is no use for you to propogate here that there was sufficient memorisation to preserve quranic accuracy..-there WAS ACTUALLY NONE.

[smaneck]

[/INDENT]So, it is evident that even the recitiations of the quran were not standard among the believers. There were seven different recitations actually.

I didn't suggest there wasn't. The point is that there was a need to have a single standardized edition, and what is remarkable is the fact they were able to arrive at one within a generation of the Prophet's passing, unlike Christianity where manuscripts of the books of the New Testament continued to be modified hundreds of years later. I also find it significant that these hadiths indicate that the variant readings did not really change the meanings of the ayats themselves.

Umar said, `Ubai (Ubayy) was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites'. Ubai says, `I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever'.
But Allah said: `None of our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar.' (Qur'an 2:106).[/INDENT]This hadith clearly shows that the Companions of Muhammad disagreed over which verses were abrogated/removed.

More likely they disagreed as to what this ayat regarding abrogation referred to.

there is no use for you to propogate here that there was sufficient memorisation to preserve quranic accuracy..-there WAS ACTUALLY NONE.

Sorry, but what your evidence indicates is nothing of the sort. At most it might indicate a verse was dropped here or there, but its accuracy, especially compared to the Bible is incomparable.

[Dan Zebiri]

Then you are just living in a blind, deluded world totally devoid of reality! Tragically for you and all muslims!

You never addressed the specific points I raised in the particular hadiths referred to, and just glossed over in the hope this major problem and issue against the quran would go away!

So here they are again..:

The companions (sahabah) of Muhammad made their own collections of the Qur'an and taught the Qur'an to their students. However these Qur'ans were not the same and confusion soon arose amongst the early Muslims as to what was the right way to recite the Qur'an. The next two hadiths give examples of this confusion:

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 468, p. 441-442; book 60
Narrated Ibrahim:

The companions of 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) came to Abi Darda', (and before they arrived at his home), he looked for them and found them. Then he asked them,: "Who among you can recite (Qur'an) as 'Abdullah recites it?" They replied, "All of us." He asked, "Who among you knows it by heart?" They pointed at 'Alqama. Then he asked Alqama. "How did you hear 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud reciting Surat Al-Lail (The Night)?" Alqama recited:
'By the male and the female.' Abu Ad-Darda said,

"I testify that I heard me Prophet reciting it likewise, but these people want me to recite it:--

'And by Him Who created male and female.' But by Allah, I will not follow them."

The above hadith shows that Muslims from different regions disagreed as to the way a particular verse should be read. Those who learnt the Qur'an from 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said surah 92:1-3 as 'By the male and the female.' while other Muslims said, 'And by Him Who created male and female.' Thus the early Muslims had not all memorized the Qur'an the same way. And only a deluded and thoughtless person would say 'theres no difference in the meanings' in the 2 readings above!

We see this problem again in the following hadith.

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 527, p. 489; book 61

Narrated Ibn Abbas:
Umar said, `Ubai (Ubayy) was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites'. Ubai says, `I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever'.
But Allah said: `None of our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar.' (Qur'an 2:106).

This hadith clearly shows that the Companions of Muhammad disagreed over which verses were abrogated/removed. Here we see that Ubai continued to recite the Qur'an with verses that the other Companions considered to have now been abrogated/removed.

It is obvious that Ubai bin Kaab refused to accept that the verses had been abrogated for he says: I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever. The hadith then quotes surah 2:106 to explain that this was an example of abrogation. The result, however, was that the Companions recited the Qur'an differently, for Ubai continued to recite the abrogated verses.

JUST the above two hadiths record how Masud and Ubai recited the Qur'an differently to other Muslims. We have already seen that these two men were recommended by Muhammad as men worthy to learn the Qur'an from. AND there are numerous more Hadiths that confirm such dubious anomalies and discrepencies in the early variant qurans!

However since their collections of the Qur'ans were not the same this caused problems for the Muslims who learned the Qur'an from them. The Muslim scholar Labib as-Said records that:

"The Syrians," we are told, "contended with the `Iraqis, the former following the reading of Ubayy ibn Ka`b, the latter that of `Abd Allah ibn Mas'ud, each accusing the other of unbelief" (Labib as-Said, The Recited Koran: A History of the First Recorded Version, tr. B. Weis, et al., Princeton, New Jersey: The Darwin Press, 1975, p. 23) [Thanks to Samuel Green for the above citation!]

So, there is no use for you to propogate here that there was sufficient memorisation to preserve quranic accuracy..-there WAS ACTUALLY NONE.

Stick to the quran, BEFORE you desperately try to cast BASELESS doubts and aspersions on the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ..!

Dan.

I didn't suggest there wasn't. The point is that there was a need to have a single standardized edition, and what is remarkable is the fact they were able to arrive at one within a generation of the Prophet's passing, unlike Christianity where manuscripts of the books of the New Testament continued to be modified hundreds of years later. I also find it significant that these hadiths indicate that the variant readings did not really change the meanings of the ayats themselves.



More likely they disagreed as to what this ayat regarding abrogation referred to.



Sorry, but what your evidence indicates is nothing of the sort. At most it might indicate a verse was dropped here or there, but its accuracy, especially compared to the Bible is incomparable.

[smaneck]

You never addressed the specific points I raised in the particular hadiths referred to, and just glossed over in the hope this major problem and issue against the quran would go away!

You mean like you won't answer my simple question which I've been asking you repeatedly for months on the other thread?

Perhaps I should repeat it here. Do you or do you not believe that Muslims are going to hell.

In any case, hadiths are not Quranic and any historian worth their salt will tell you they are not reliable.

[Dan Zebiri]

More irrationalism & irrelevance from a desperate bahai like you, again. Never mind, this question is addressed to Muslims (and not missonary bahais like smaneck) as well:

Then muslims are just living in a blind, deluded world totally devoid of reality! Tragically for smaneck and all muslims!

You never addressed the specific points I raised in the particular hadiths referred to, and just glossed over in the hope this major problem and issue against the quran would go away!

So here they are again..:

The companions (sahabah) of Muhammad made their own collections of the Qur'an and taught the Qur'an to their students. However these Qur'ans were not the same and confusion soon arose amongst the early Muslims as to what was the right way to recite the Qur'an. The next two hadiths give examples of this confusion:

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 468, p. 441-442; book 60
Narrated Ibrahim:

The companions of 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) came to Abi Darda', (and before they arrived at his home), he looked for them and found them. Then he asked them,: "Who among you can recite (Qur'an) as 'Abdullah recites it?" They replied, "All of us." He asked, "Who among you knows it by heart?" They pointed at 'Alqama. Then he asked Alqama. "How did you hear 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud reciting Surat Al-Lail (The Night)?" Alqama recited:
'By the male and the female.' Abu Ad-Darda said,

"I testify that I heard me Prophet reciting it likewise, but these people want me to recite it:--

'And by Him Who created male and female.' But by Allah, I will not follow them."

The above hadith shows that Muslims from different regions disagreed as to the way a particular verse should be read. Those who learnt the Qur'an from 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said surah 92:1-3 as 'By the male and the female.' while other Muslims said, 'And by Him Who created male and female.' Thus the early Muslims had not all memorized the Qur'an the same way. And only a deluded and thoughtless person would say 'theres no difference in the meanings' in the 2 readings above!

We see this problem again in the following hadith.

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 527, p. 489; book 61

Narrated Ibn Abbas:
Umar said, `Ubai (Ubayy) was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites'. Ubai says, `I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever'.
But Allah said: `None of our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar.' (Qur'an 2:106).

This hadith clearly shows that the Companions of Muhammad disagreed over which verses were abrogated/removed. Here we see that Ubai continued to recite the Qur'an with verses that the other Companions considered to have now been abrogated/removed.

It is obvious that Ubai bin Kaab refused to accept that the verses had been abrogated for he says: I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever. The hadith then quotes surah 2:106 to explain that this was an example of abrogation. The result, however, was that the Companions recited the Qur'an differently, for Ubai continued to recite the abrogated verses.

JUST the above two hadiths record how Masud and Ubai recited the Qur'an differently to other Muslims. We have already seen that these two men were recommended by Muhammad as men worthy to learn the Qur'an from. AND there are numerous more Hadiths that confirm such dubious anomalies and discrepencies in the early variant qurans!

However since their collections of the Qur'ans were not the same this caused problems for the Muslims who learned the Qur'an from them. The Muslim scholar Labib as-Said records that:

"The Syrians," we are told, "contended with the `Iraqis, the former following the reading of Ubayy ibn Ka`b, the latter that of `Abd Allah ibn Mas'ud, each accusing the other of unbelief" (Labib as-Said, The Recited Koran: A History of the First Recorded Version, tr. B. Weis, et al., Princeton, New Jersey: The Darwin Press, 1975, p. 23) [Thanks to Samuel Green for the above citation!]

So, there is no use for you to propogate here that there was sufficient memorisation to preserve quranic accuracy..-there WAS ACTUALLY NONE.

Stick to the quran, BEFORE you desperately try to cast BASELESS doubts and aspersions on the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ..!

Repeating the 'unworthiness of the Hadith sahih' by smaneck makes her own points worthless. It does not make the hadith 'worthless' at all, not the least to true, orthodox Muslims.

Dan.

You mean like you won't answer my simple question which I've been asking you repeatedly for months on the other thread?

Perhaps I should repeat it here. Do you or do you not believe that Muslims are going to hell.

In any case, hadiths are not Quranic and any historian worth their salt will tell you they are not reliable.

[smaneck]

Stick to the quran, BEFORE you desperately try to cast BASELESS doubts and aspersions on the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ..!

LOL. You don't like it when I point out the hypocrisy of your arguments do you?

If we were to judge the Bible by the same standards you want to judge the Qur'an you would have nothing left.

[Dan Zebiri]

Repeating the 'unworthiness of the Hadith sahih' by smaneck makes her own points worthless. It does not make the hadith 'worthless' at all, not the least to true, orthodox Muslims. Orthodox muslims take you smaneck as the real hypocrite par excellence, for cherry-picking what is sunna from what is supposedly not, according to your deviationist bahai views.

So: Indeed, the companions (sahabah) of Muhammad made their own collections of the Qur'an and taught the Qur'an to their students. However these Qur'ans were not the same and confusion soon arose amongst the early Muslims as to what was the right way to recite the Qur'an. The next two hadiths give examples of this confusion:

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 468, p. 441-442; book 60
Narrated Ibrahim:

The companions of 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) came to Abi Darda', (and before they arrived at his home), he looked for them and found them. Then he asked them,: "Who among you can recite (Qur'an) as 'Abdullah recites it?" They replied, "All of us." He asked, "Who among you knows it by heart?" They pointed at 'Alqama. Then he asked Alqama. "How did you hear 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud reciting Surat Al-Lail (The Night)?" Alqama recited:
'By the male and the female.' Abu Ad-Darda said,

"I testify that I heard me Prophet reciting it likewise, but these people want me to recite it:--

'And by Him Who created male and female.' But by Allah, I will not follow them."

The above hadith shows that Muslims from different regions disagreed as to the way a particular verse should be read. Those who learnt the Qur'an from 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said surah 92:1-3 as 'By the male and the female.' while other Muslims said, 'And by Him Who created male and female.' Thus the early Muslims had not all memorized the Qur'an the same way. And only a deluded and thoughtless person would say 'theres no difference in the meanings' in the 2 readings above!

We see this problem again in the following hadith.

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 527, p. 489; book 61

Narrated Ibn Abbas:
Umar said, `Ubai (Ubayy) was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites'. Ubai says, `I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever'.
But Allah said: `None of our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar.' (Qur'an 2:106).

This hadith clearly shows that the Companions of Muhammad disagreed over which verses were abrogated/removed. Here we see that Ubai continued to recite the Qur'an with verses that the other Companions considered to have now been abrogated/removed.

It is obvious that Ubai bin Kaab refused to accept that the verses had been abrogated for he says: I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever. The hadith then quotes surah 2:106 to explain that this was an example of abrogation. The result, however, was that the Companions recited the Qur'an differently, for Ubai continued to recite the abrogated verses.

JUST the above two hadiths record how Masud and Ubai recited the Qur'an differently to other Muslims. We have already seen that these two men were recommended by Muhammad as men worthy to learn the Qur'an from. AND there are numerous more Hadiths that confirm such dubious anomalies and discrepencies in the early variant qurans!

However since their collections of the Qur'ans were not the same this caused problems for the Muslims who learned the Qur'an from them. The Muslim scholar Labib as-Said records that:

"The Syrians," we are told, "contended with the `Iraqis, the former following the reading of Ubayy ibn Ka`b, the latter that of `Abd Allah ibn Mas'ud, each accusing the other of unbelief" (Labib as-Said, The Recited Koran: A History of the First Recorded Version, tr. B. Weis, et al., Princeton, New Jersey: The Darwin Press, 1975, p. 23) [Thanks to Samuel Green for the above citation!]

So, there is no use for you to propogate here that there was sufficient memorisation to preserve quranic accuracy..-there WAS ACTUALLY NONE.

Stick to the quran, BEFORE you desperately try to cast BASELESS doubts and aspersions on the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ..!

[smaneck]

Nice try, Dan but those minor variations are nothing compared to vast differences in New Testament manuscripts.

Have you ever bothered to study this or have you been too busy criticizing other people's scriptures?

[Dan Zebiri]

Tragically, for you smaneck we cannot say 'nice try' at your simplistic and incoherent response..!

It is your glib way to try and distract readers away from the flaws and fatal errors in your quran!

Specifically address my points, otherwise you have conceded that you are unable to deal with them factually and intelligently...

Like so:

The Qur'ans in the seventh century AD were all not the same and confusion soon arose among the early Muslims as to what was the right way to recite the Qur'an. The next two hadiths give examples of this confusion:

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 468, p. 441-442; book 60
Narrated Ibrahim:

The companions of 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) came to Abi Darda', (and before they arrived at his home), he looked for them and found them. Then he asked them,: "Who among you can recite (Qur'an) as 'Abdullah recites it?" They replied, "All of us." He asked, "Who among you knows it by heart?" They pointed at 'Alqama. Then he asked Alqama. "How did you hear 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud reciting Surat Al-Lail (The Night)?" Alqama recited:
'By the male and the female.' Abu Ad-Darda said,

"I testify that I heard me Prophet reciting it likewise, but these people want me to recite it:--

'And by Him Who created male and female.' But by Allah, I will not follow them."

The above hadith shows that Muslims from different regions disagreed as to the way a particular verse should be read. Those who learnt the Qur'an from 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said surah 92:1-3 as 'By the male and the female.' while other Muslims said, 'And by Him Who created male and female.' Thus the early Muslims had not all memorized the Qur'an the same way. And only a deluded and thoughtless person would say 'theres no difference in the meanings' in the 2 readings above!

We see this problem again in the following hadith.

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 527, p. 489; book 61

Narrated Ibn Abbas:
Umar said, `Ubai (Ubayy) was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites'. Ubai says, `I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever'.
But Allah said: `None of our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar.' (Qur'an 2:106).

This hadith clearly shows that the Companions of Muhammad disagreed over which verses were abrogated/removed. Here we see that Ubai continued to recite the Qur'an with verses that the other Companions considered to have now been abrogated/removed.

It is obvious that Ubai bin Kaab refused to accept that the verses had been abrogated for he says: I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever. The hadith then quotes surah 2:106 to explain that this was an example of abrogation. The result, however, was that the Companions recited the Qur'an differently, for Ubai continued to recite the abrogated verses.

JUST the above two hadiths record how Masud and Ubai recited the Qur'an differently to other Muslims. We have already seen that these two men were recommended by Muhammad as men worthy to learn the Qur'an from. AND there are numerous more Hadiths that confirm such dubious anomalies and discrepencies in the early variant qurans!

However since their collections of the Qur'ans were not the same this caused problems for the Muslims who learned the Qur'an from them. The Muslim scholar Labib as-Said records that:

"The Syrians," we are told, "contended with the `Iraqis, the former following the reading of Ubayy ibn Ka`b, the latter that of `Abd Allah ibn Mas'ud, each accusing the other of unbelief" (Labib as-Said, The Recited Koran: A History of the First Recorded Version, tr. B. Weis, et al., Princeton, New Jersey: The Darwin Press, 1975, p. 23) [Thanks to Samuel Green for the above citation!]

So, there is no use for you to propogate here that there was sufficient memorisation to preserve quranic accuracy..-there WAS ACTUALLY NONE.

DEAL factually and HONESTLY with these serious flaws of the quran., smaneck, otherwise stop claiming the quran is the divine word of God, Period! You are just spreading false propoganda, And so prove that is all that you can do.

Nice try, Dan but those minor variations are nothing compared to vast differences in New Testament manuscripts.

Have you ever bothered to study this or have you been too busy criticizing other people's scriptures?

[smaneck]

Specifically address my points, otherwise you have conceded that you are unable to deal with them factually and intelligently...

Sure.

As soon as you answer the simple question I've been asking you for months. Do you or do you not believe that Muslims are going to burn in hell?

[smaneck]

Then you are just living in a blind, deluded world totally devoid of reality! Tragically for you and all muslims!

You never addressed the specific points I raised in the particular hadiths referred to, and just glossed over in the hope this major problem and issue against the quran would go away!
.

And you've never answered the question as to whether or not you believe Muslims are going to hell, which I stated before is the prerequisite for me addressing your other points.

[Dan Zebiri]

When you cannot give an intelligent answer, then try to be funny - thats your pitiful way out isn't it?

Putting your question that was on THE OTHER thread, HERE, AS A PRE-CONDITION for replies here, is a sheer cop-out by smaneck.

You might as well put it on all your replies on the other threads in this Islam forum. too...Why not? You just cannot reply coherently to each point raised!

And you've never answered the question as to whether or not you believe Muslims are going to hell, which I stated before is the prerequisite for me addressing your other points.

[smaneck]

When you cannot give an intelligent answer, then try to be funny - thats your pitiful way out isn't it?

I'm not being funny at all. After you accused Muslims of being hateful on the basis of a Qur'anic verse that spoke of Jews and Christians going to hell, I asked if you if you believed Muslims were going to hell. It's been months now and still you refuse to answer that question.

[Dan Zebiri]

Then take your question back to the other thread, where 'it belongs'..and try to deal intelligently with the point at hand in THIS thread...like so:

Early Qur'anic codices contained a different number of chapters from the Qur'an we have today, and that there were numerous other differences among these early Qur'ans, including spelling differences, different words, different phrases, etc. We've seen that, according to both Aisha the 'Mother of the Faithful' and Ubayy ibn Ka'b -Muhammad's 'greatest' reciter, approximately two-thirds of Surah 33 went missing.

Aisha even notes that the Verse of Suckling was eaten by a goat. Ibn Umar declares that Muslims shouldn't claim that they know the Qur'an, since much of it has been lost. And yet in spite of the factual evidence, Muslims blindly claim that the Qur'an has been 'perfectly preserved'.

But there are other problems. In Sahih Muslim we read about entire Surahs being forgotten. One of these Surahs was about as long as Surah 9, which contains more than a hundred verses. And yet Muslims remembered practically nothing from it.

Sahih Muslim 2286: Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at.

I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: "If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it: "O people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi. 2) and "that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13).

These are not just small, 'minor variants' but major problems for a book that claims to have 'come down from God'!

[smaneck]

Then take your question back to the other thread, where 'it belongs'.

.

Sure, if you'll answer it there. Otherwise I'm taking it to whatever threads you post on.

In any case, the fact Muslims might have forgotten bits and pieces of the Qur'an (or even a hundred ayats) does not compare to the amount of interpolation which has taken place in various parts of the Bible. Better to forget part of scripture than to insert materials that weren't in the original manuscript as has happened with the Bible.