WLC and Evolution derail

[shunyadragon]

Yes, but I noticed in that recent interview that KBertsche posted, he sounds angry about the backlash he received from YEC Christian trolls. Expressing that anger is good given their number. It takes courage. He's coming around, I think.

I sort of agree, maybe, but Demski remains as far as I know at present he remains staunchly an OEC, rejects evolution, and holds to a "universal" flood, not necessarily 'global,' but impacts all of humanity.

[Kbertsche]

I sort of agree, maybe, but Demski remains as far as I know at present he remains staunchly an OEC, rejects evolution, and holds to a "universal" flood, not necessarily 'global,' but impacts all of humanity.

Yes, this is accurate. This is the position he as held as long as I've been aware of him.

It's pretty much the same position that I hold. I think it's a fine position to have.

[whag]

Yes, this is accurate. This is the position he as held as long as I've been aware of him.

It's pretty much the same position that I hold. I think it's a fine position to have.

Well I wouldn't say that. It's a desperate position to have in the sense that it's trying too hard to fit into reality. You believe the world needed this punitive flood, even though you don't need to. It actually absolves you from believing the horrors, inconsistencies, and divine regret expressed in that myth.

[shunyadragon]

Yes, this is accurate. This is the position he as held as long as I've been aware of him.

It's pretty much the same position that I hold. I think it's a fine position to have.

Your view toward science is made abundantly clear now that I know that you believe in OEC like Demski.

[Tassman]

Yes, this is accurate. This is the position he as held as long as I've been aware of him.

It's pretty much the same position that I hold. I think it's a fine position to have.

You may think it a fine position, one that supports your religious presuppositions, but it's not supported by substantive fact. Quite the reverse!

[rogue06]

Your view toward science is made abundantly clear now that I know that you believe in OEC like Demski.

AFAICT, Kbertsche has always been very open about being an OEC.

[shunyadragon]

AFAICT, Kbertsche has always been very open about being an OEC.

Maybe AFAICT (sounds like a duck selling insurance) has always believed this. I simply did not realize he was stoically committed to OEC. Now it gives me more insight concerning how he responds in science.

[Terraceth]

Michael J. Behe is a senior fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture who in recent years has been increasingly accepting of various aspects of evolutionary theory (such as common descent^[1]) to the point that some ID supports are describing him as being a theistic evolutionist.

His biggest obstacle are random mutations which he seems to accept saying that species can be explained by purely natural processes like "random mutations, natural selection, and common descent" but holds that they are still somehow directed by God -- which is essentially a theistic evolutionist position -- and may not be an adequate explanation at higher taxonomic levels.

In "recent years"? Wasn't he always okay with common descent? It's been something like a decade since I read Darwin's Black Box but I'm pretty sure he said he accepted common descent in it, his objection was that he did not think purely naturalistic causes could account for common descent.

[rogue06]

In "recent years"? Wasn't he always okay with common descent? It's been something like a decade since I read Darwin's Black Box but I'm pretty sure he said he accepted common descent in it, his objection was that he did not think purely naturalistic causes could account for common descent.

He pretty much hinted at it but it was in his Edge of Evolution he came right out and said it.

[rogue06]

The flood was meant to kill all human beings. Early Australians, Asians, and Europeans were human beings.

Again, it would depend how long ago the Flood was. If humanity had not yet spread out very much one megaflood could have nearly wiped them out.

[whag]

Again, it would depend how long ago the Flood was. If humanity had not yet spread out very much one megaflood could have nearly wiped them out.

Even if it occurred 30,000 years ago, many human beings were already in the regions I mentioned. If most of them were evil, but the flood didn't touch them, the teleology of the deluge is confused. If the many people that inhabited those untouched regions weren't evil, then why send a large-scale flood to begin with, drowning newborns and the like.


It's fraught with problems no matter what geochronology you subscribe to.

[shunyadragon]

Again, it would depend how long ago the Flood was. If humanity had not yet spread out very much one megaflood could have nearly wiped them out.

Humans already spread out further than any imaginable "universal" flood that was not "global" at least 45,000 years ago they were all over Africa at least more than 100,000 years ago they were all across Eurasia. There is no geologic record of any possible candidate for such a flood.

[rogue06]

Even if it occurred 30,000 years ago, many human beings were already in the regions I mentioned. If most of them were evil, but the flood didn't touch them, the teleology of the deluge is confused. If the many people that inhabited those untouched regions weren't evil, then why send a large-scale flood to begin with, drowning newborns and the like.


It's fraught with problems no matter what geochronology you subscribe to.

The Toba supervolcano explosion thought to have nearly led to humanity being made extinct (only a couple thousand humans are thought to have survived) took place around 75,000 years ago.

[whag]

The Toba supervolcano explosion thought to have nearly led to humanity being made extinct (only a couple thousand humans are thought to have survived) took place around 75,000 years ago.

That was a volcano and 75,000 years ago. 20,000 years after Toba, we were crossing the ocean.

Again, the flood was specifically purposed to eliminate a concentrated group of evil. If it spares thousands of evil people, it is a failed punitive measure.

[shunyadragon]

The Toba supervolcano explosion thought to have nearly led to humanity being made extinct (only a couple thousand humans are thought to have survived) took place around 75,000 years ago.

The estimates of the survival after the Toba eruption are estimates. It could have been several thousand several tens of thousands. Whag is correct, within a few thousand years the human population was recovering and spread around the African and Eurasian continents.

There is the interesting question whether Home Erectus would be considered human in your view, before they were mixed with and replaced by Homo sapiens populations.

Still no geologic evidence of any sort of flood at any time in the past 100,000 years that would qualify for any sort of "universal flood."