Mickey Mouse must die

[John Goddard]

Why do you think 'enemies' must refer to all Christians and Jews?

read it carefully, I don't see that.

It doesn't mean all of them. The Quran scolds Jews who reject Jesus, and Christians who reject Torah and embrace Trinity with more than one God:

Quran 2:113 And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.

But then it says:

Quran 2:62 Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Quran 2:121 Those unto whom We have given the Scripture, who read it with the right reading, those believe in it. And whoso disbelieveth in it, those are they who are the losers.

So only those Jews and Christians with messed-up doctrines are the enemies. All the rest are praised.

[penguinfan]

Where does it say anything about Christians rejecting Torah?

[John Goddard]

Where does it say anything about Christians rejecting Torah?

Jesus confirmed Torah:

Quran 5:46 And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Those who disobey Jesus are doomed:

Quran 5:47 Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

So when Christians say Torah is null and void, they are called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

[penguinfan]

Are you saying that James mistakenly instructed Gentile Christians to follow Noachian law instead of the Law of Moses, or would following Noachian law still be considered the law of the Torah?

[John Goddard]

Are you saying that James mistakenly instructed Gentile Christians to follow Noachian law instead of the Law of Moses, or would following Noachian law still be considered the law of the Torah?

No I'm saying Christians mistakenly tell Jews to abandon Torah.

Noahide is still Torah, it is just not formal conversion by circumcision to be a Jew who can observe other parts of Torah.

Acts 15 says Gentiles can remain Gentiles. But the NT never advises Jews to abandon Torah, the Quran criticizes hardcore grace-only Christians for teaching this.

[penguinfan]

I'm actually confused by what you said. We can take this to the Christian forum if you want. But, are you saying that Paul never actually believed that Mosaic Law was abrogated (for lack of a better word) with the crucifixion of Jesus?

What's your take on Hebrews:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

[John Goddard]

I'm actually confused by what you said. We can take this to the Christian forum if you want. But, are you saying that Paul never actually believed that Mosaic Law was abrogated (for lack of a better word) with the crucifixion of Jesus?

What's your take on Hebrews:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

We can discuss it a little here in relation to Islam.

Some Christians tell Jews all the Torah was nailed to the cross and abolished right then. But the Bible really says that it is only the beginning of the end:

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth pass at the Judgment:

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

This is when the New Covenant finally overshadows the Old Covenant. Namely when there is no more sin and death.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So these conditions are not here yet. Therefore it is a mistake for Christians to say Torah is already abolished, it does not happen until there is no more sin and death in the world.

This is part of what he Quran criticizes.

[smaneck]

I'm actually confused by what you said. We can take this to the Christian forum if you want. But, are you saying that Paul never actually believed that Mosaic Law was abrogated (for lack of a better word) with the crucifixion of Jesus?

What's your take on Hebrews:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Paul didn't write Hebrews.

[penguinfan]

Paul didn't write Hebrews.

I didn't say that he did, but thank you for your completely pointless post.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Are you reassured that MEMRI quoted him correctly?

No, MEMRI has a history of misrepresentation.

In this particular case, did MEMRI quote him correctly? If not, what did they get wrong?

[Tanakh Keeper]

Why do you think 'enemies' must refer to all Christians and Jews?

read it carefully, I don't see that.

They want a form of Islam that will not terrify the enemies, but such a thing is impossible, because Allah said: “The Jews and Christians will not be pleased with you until you follow their religion.” No form of Islam can please the enemies. Don’t even go there, brothers. It’s a done deal. No form of Islam can please the enemies.

Actually, the sentence containing "Jews and Christians" is bracketed on either side by a sentences that refer to "the enemies".

What do you see, Barnasha? Other than saying it doesn't say that, tell me specifically what you think it does say.

[John Goddard]

Actually, the sentence containing "Jews and Christians" is bracketed on either side by a sentences that refer to "the enemies".

What do you see, Barnasha? Other than saying it doesn't say that, tell me specifically what you think it does say.

It is the same context as this concerning Jews who reject Jesus:

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Jews who reject Jesus, and Christians who reject Torah, are spiritual enemies according to the Quran. It doesn't mean you are supposed to hate them or gloat that you have the correct Way, just know they are not in agreement with God.

Romans 11:20-21 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

[סלח לנו]

Sheikh Mohammed Al-Munajid told Saudi Arabia's Al-Majd Television that his beef with Mickey is that he is a mouse, a creature that Islam sees as "repulsive and corrupting." Al-Munajid explained that Islamic law refers to the mouse as "little corrupter" and a creature that is "steered by Satan," and grants permission to all Muslims to "kill [mice] in all cases." Therefore, according to Islamic law, insisted the sheikh, "Mickey Mouse should be killed."

I wish to prove my persistent insistence that most Muslims, especially the militant ones, do not know the Quran well. In school, I only had three years of exposure to elementary/simplified Arabic as a kid (and forgotten most of it) but my impression is Quranic Arabic is not quite the same as modern Arabic. Am I right? I have an impression that modern militant Arab Muslims themselves have hard time understanding the Quran or ever even bother to read their Quran in its entirety. They carry their Quran to Guantanamo not to read it but as a symbol of affiliation and pride just like we Jews use the size and configuration of our hats and kippot (yarmulkes) as symbols of affiliation. Do they even deliberately place Qurans in harm's way so that they could say that American soldiers desecrated the Quran. They did blow up the golden dome mosque, didn't they?

Otherwise, why would Hamas TV have a plagiarised version of Mickey Mouse?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6257594.stm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZEGsnWZKh8

Hamas' Mickey Mouse was taken off the air a few months ago, not because of Muslim protest but because of Israeli protest, They way they killed their Mickey Mouse character was announcing to their kids "Hamas mouse was assasinated by a Jewish terrorist". How is it the imams and ulemas ever so near the hamas never rebuked them for using a character as reviled as a pig as an Islamic symbol for jihad? Did the imams and ulemas even bothered to see what hamas was doing with themselves and with their canon fodder citizens?

[barnasha]

I wish to prove my persistent insistence that most Muslims, especially the militant ones, do not know the Quran well.

I agree, and think it is an important point - one that is not limited to Islam.

The militant people seem to know the least though, because their spirit is very unislamic. They are caught up in the political stuff.

I have an impression that modern militant Arab Muslims themselves have hard time understanding the Quran or ever even bother to read their Quran in its entirety. They carry their Quran to Guantanamo not to read it but as a symbol of affiliation and pride just like we Jews use the size and configuration of our hats and kippot (yarmulkes) as symbols of affiliation. Do they even deliberately place Qurans in harm's way so that they could say that American soldiers desecrated the Quran. They did blow up the golden dome mosque, didn't they?

well the situation in iraq is political.

[smaneck]

I but my impression is Quranic Arabic is not quite the same as modern Arabic. Am I right?

Qur'anic Arabic is not that different from Modern Standard Arabic but it is different from the various Arabic dialects. But any literate Arab knows MSA.

.

Do they even deliberately place Qurans in harm's way so that they could say that American soldiers desecrated the Quran. They did blow up the golden dome mosque, didn't they?

The Golden Dome Mosque is really a shrine, not a mosque. Two of the Shi'ite Imams are buried there. Wahhabi -type Muslims regard such shrines as shrik and have not even destroyed such holy sites but killed those worshiping there.

I don't think the problem is Muslims not knowing the Qur'an, so much as how the Qur'an is interpreted.