Hide and go seek - Question for Chistians

[jason_r]

i have to ask why a god, who created people and who he wants to have a relationship with him, doesn't poke his head through the clouds and reveal himself which would bring billions (including those of past) to repentance who otherwise would be doomed to hell. instead he only reveals himself to a few people throughout history and leaves behind a book who many people find no more convincing (and for some people less convincing) than any other religious text we have. i'm curious what christians' views on this are.

[Robert's s/n]

Excellent topic.

[Mitbulls]

A very good question, Jason, and one alot of people (myself included) have struggled with in the past.

i have to ask why a god, who created people and who he wants to have a relationship with him, doesn't poke his head through the clouds and reveal himself which would bring billions (including those of past) to repentance who otherwise would be doomed to hell.

The number 1 answer to this, I think, is that it is an assumption. We assume that if we saw some great miracle, billions would come to believe in God. In fact, this doesn't seem to be true. Many miracles were performed in bible times, and in fact they occur (albeit extremely rarely) even today. The problem now is that we refuse to accept anything at face value. If God were to poke his head through the clouds (assuming we could be in his presence in our current state, which is a different issue altogether), more than likely the vast majority would either attribute the miracle to their own god, or come up with statements like "I have no idea what that was, but I'm extremely confident that it had nothing to do with God and that someday scientists will discover (and prove) this." This is actually the way we treat many historical "miracles" (like, for instance, the beginning of life).

instead he only reveals himself to a few people throughout history and leaves behind a book who many people find no more convincing (and for some people less convincing) than any other religious text we have. i'm curious what christians' views on this are.

This is the interesting thing. In fact, God did not reveal himself solely through the Bible. If we grant, for now, that God created the entire universe, and that he communicates with people in the universe, and that miracles have been and continue to be performed in his name, what other means of revelation are left short of taking away our free will? Even science can not answer most of the questions of the world. It's like the little girl on Anamaniacs, if you start out with any simple scientific principle and ask "why" enough times, you'll end up back at either "just because that's how it is" or "i have no idea." The fact that God has revealed himself to us in creation itself, the bible, the beginning of life, nature around us (yes, even the Laws of Nature), etc. shows that he does want us to find him. He will not, however, go to the extent of taking away our ability to make our own choices.

[Robert's s/n]

If we grant, for now, that God created the entire universe, and that he communicates with people in the universe

If God communicates through nature, do natural disasters indicate animosity on God's end toward his people(or at least a selected portion)? And also how should we interpret carnivorous predation?

, and that miracles have been and continue to be performed in his name,

Where, exactly, are the miracles that continue to be "performed in his name"?

what other means of revelation are left short of taking away our free will?

Even if God appeared to each person face to face, it would still take an element of trust to believe what He had to say, and thus, would not take away free will.

Maybe if everyone were given the same opportunity the disciples' were, this world be a much different and much improved place.

[LeiLani]

Maybe if everyone were given the same opportunity the disciples' were, this world be a much different and much improved place.

That's still no guarantee that everyone would come to Christ. Judas had three years with Jesus, and still chose to betray him.

[Thomas2003]

i have to ask why a god, who created people and who he wants to have a relationship with him, doesn't poke his head through the clouds and reveal himself which would bring billions (including those of past) to repentance who otherwise would be doomed to hell.

He reveals Himself to those He wants a relationship with, by regenerating them and bringing them to repentence. He does not reveal Himself to those who He does not wish to have a relationship with, those who are not elected unto the atonement.

instead he only reveals himself to a few people throughout history and leaves behind a book who many people find no more convincing (and for some people less convincing) than any other religious text we have. i'm curious what christians' views on this are.

Right, see above.

Cordially,

Thomas

[AtheistArchon]

- Certainly if god is omnipotent, he could find a way of showing himself such that we'd all understand who he was. No?

- As for free will, we seem to do okay without the ability to flap our arms and fly. Is this a great tragedy, that we cannot do so? We seem to have no free will in the fact that we tend to feel pain, too. Likewise, is this a great tragedy? It's what we call "reality"... we can't fly by flapping our arms, and we feel pain, no matter what we wish were true.

- How then would this kind of knowledge harm us if it directed us towards god? There would be no atheists, sure. But so what? *I* certainly wouldn't be complaining, and I'm the atheist's atheist!

- Let's remember that even EVE had free will, and she spoke to god directly. For if she didn't have free will, she certainly couldn't have made any free choices to disobey god, could she.

- Excellent thread.

[AtheistArchon]

He reveals Himself to those He wants a relationship with, by regenerating them and bringing them to repentence. He does not reveal Himself to those who He does not wish to have a relationship with, those who are not elected unto the atonement.

- I like it! It's god's fault I'm an atheist. He isn't interested in me... cool. I certainly can't be held responsible then and sent to hell for my disbelief, since it was god who neglected to enlighten me.

[jason_r]

The problem now is that we refuse to accept anything at face value. If God were to poke his head through the clouds (assuming we could be in his presence in our current state, which is a different issue altogether), more than likely the vast majority would either attribute the miracle to their own god, or come up with statements like "I have no idea what that was, but I'm extremely confident that it had nothing to do with God and that someday scientists will discover (and prove) this."

true, true...even those who witnessed Jesus first hand dismissed him as a sorcerer, as one using the powers of satan, etc. and i suppose if God did poke his head through the clouds it would completely disrupt our world/life.

but why didn't God "poke his head through the clouds" from the start...continuing to interract with people the way he did with adam and eve. and even cain and abel after the fall.

[Mitbulls]

If God communicates through nature, do natural disasters indicate animosity on God's end toward his people(or at least a selected portion)? And also how should we interpret carnivorous predation?

I do not mean that every individual natural event bears God's direct signature and purpose. Think, however, of how nature came to be what it is? Do you consider it just an infinite set of coincidences? That in itself would have to be a miracle. And beyond that, where did life come from? How did nonliving things become living? Also, why does nature continue to exist? If it were really just a set of coincidences, it seems equally likely that any minute it will coincidently cease to exist. How do you interpret those things?

Where, exactly, are the miracles that continue to be "performed in his name"?

It depends on your definition of a miracle. I would argue that such things as the generation and birth of a child, and all of those things you might call "natural laws" are in fact miracles, especially since we have no idea why they work the way they work, or when they began this way, only that we observe that it is so. Beyond those, there are such things as "miraculous" healings (as I myself have seen and experienced). Most who cannot accept such things as miraculous instead search for scientific explanations, but I have yet to hear any that are satisfactory. If you want more information on modern-day miracles, you can search for them on any news site. Also, check out the saints of the Catholic Church. Spl_cadet might be able to provide you more info on finding evidence of these miracles.

Even if God appeared to each person face to face, it would still take an element of trust to believe what He had to say, and thus, would not take away free will.

Maybe if everyone were given the same opportunity the disciples' were, this world be a much different and much improved place.

The issue with this is that you're assuming two things.

1. We (who, in the Christian view, are blasphemous betrayers who knew God, but chose to reject him) can actually survive as such in the presence of God.

The Bible teaches that being in the real, literal presence of God would be overwhelming for us in our physical, sinful bodies. So actual face-to-face contact is ruled out.

2. God has a responsibility to absolutely prove his existence to us.
Look again from the Christian worldview. Assuming that God exists, and that He created the world, and that He continues to maintain it, etc., how arrogant would we have to be to demand more signs from Him? How out of place would it be for us, the created, to show such disdain for the creator that we ignore the signs He has given us and ask for others that (at least to us right now) might seem more convincing?

Maybe if everyone were given the same opportunity the disciples' were, this world be a much different and much improved place.

Funny, because there were alot more people at the time of Christ who had that opportunity and did not take it. What makes you think people today would be different?

- Certainly if god is omnipotent, he could find a way of showing himself such that we'd all understand who he was. No?

Absolutely, and I would argue that he has. Our tendency, though, is to ignore it in favor of more comfortable views. Take, for instance, (since I've used it as an example already) the beginning of life. There is no suitable explanation for the beginning of life other than some sort of miracle (to modern science). Does this mean we accept that it was a sort of miracle? Of course not. Instead, we hold that it was something else, that will someday be proven. Don't you think the same would happen if a miracle were performed right in front of your face today?

- As for free will, we seem to do okay without the ability to flap our arms and fly. Is this a great tragedy, that we cannot do so? We seem to have no free will in the fact that we tend to feel pain, too. Likewise, is this a great tragedy? It's what we call "reality"... we can't fly by flapping our arms, and we feel pain, no matter what we wish were true.

The term "free will" applies to mental limitations, not physical ones. Your example is not one of free will, but one of physical limitations. Free will is the ability to openly choose between any given possible alternatives. It exists now, and to my knowledge has never been hindered by God.

- How then would this kind of knowledge harm us if it directed us towards god? There would be no atheists, sure. But so what? *I* certainly wouldn't be complaining, and I'm the atheist's atheist!

What kind of knowledge do you mean? You mean absolute proof that God existed and loved us, etc.? Every Christian I've ever met believes that the day will eventually come when God will reveal himself absolutely and remove all opposition. However, like I've said before, He's revealed Himself already. Why should we condemn Him for not revealing himself enough to satisfy us?? His purpose isn't to satisfy us...

- I like it! It's god's fault I'm an atheist. He isn't interested in me... cool. I certainly can't be held responsible then and sent to hell for my disbelief, since it was god who neglected to enlighten me.

You're not off the hook quite that easily. This is the Calvinist view (and one I personally very much disagree with), but you'll find that they do still believe you'll be responsible for youre disbelief.

but why didn't God "poke his head through the clouds" from the start...continuing to interract with people the way he did with adam and eve. and even cain and abel after the fall.

Once sin entered the world, it so destroyed the relationship between God and man that it could never be the same kind of fellowship it was before the fall. The only recorded instance of God's interaction with Cain and Abel (correct me if I'm wrong) is his judgement of Cain. After this time, He is never recorded as meeting a person face-to-face. He always speaks through a mediator: an angel, a natural miracle or event, visions, prophets, and eventually Jesus Christ. Today the main mediator is the Bible. God still speaks to us the same way he always has, he's just changed the mediator.

[Robert's s/n]

It's god's fault I'm an atheist

[LGM]

Today @ 07:51 PM post located here
jason_r:
true, true...even those who witnessed Jesus first hand dismissed him as a sorcerer, as one using the powers of satan, etc. and i suppose if God did poke his head through the clouds it would completely disrupt our world/life.

but why didn't God "poke his head through the clouds" from the start...continuing to interract with people the way he did with adam and eve. and even cain and abel after the fall.

why do you keep making the absurd claim that what you've read in the bible about Adam and Eve or even Jesus is somehow anything other than mythology? How does someone read Genesis, convince themselves its a historically accurate account, and then wonder why there aren't any more talking serpents?

The sooner you figure out that YHWH has never materialized and "poked his head through the clouds" and talked to Adam, Moses or Paul, the easier it will be for you to discover the answer as to why he doesn't do it on a regular basis now. Its the same reason you never see flying reindeer on Christmas eve anymore...

LGM
...next you'll be able to figure out why certain alleged Christians like to claim that they are "specially" selected by YHWH to be his chosen pets...

[Robert's s/n]

That's still no guarantee that everyone would come to Christ. Judas had three years with Jesus, and still chose to betray him.

True, but the disciples were given, in my opinion, an unfair advantage. Certainly seeing the resurrected Christ would've had an effect on them--an effect we are not permitted to experience. Don't you think God should give everyone the same qualitative level of proof of his existance and purpose for the world?

And, to be fair to him, Judas may have just tried to force Jesus to oppose the Roman political presence. IOW, he may have still believed in Jesus when he betrayed him.

[JCA]

Today @ 05:39 PM post located here
jason_r:

i have to ask why a god, who created people and who he wants to have a relationship with him, doesn't poke his head through the clouds and reveal himself which would bring billions (including those of past) to repentance who otherwise would be doomed to hell. instead he only reveals himself to a few people throughout history and leaves behind a book who many people find no more convincing (and for some people less convincing) than any other religious text we have. i'm curious what christians' views on this are.

I cannot speak for all Christians, nor do I want to.. so I will give you the best answer *I* can see.. also note that I may not have the same answer as other Christians, nor do I in fact say that I have a complete grasp of the truth..

With that said, I think it is because God wants us to have a relationship with Him and His Son through choice, and not through force. For God to show Himself to the masses may do as you say, create a lot of converts.. but how many of those people will have been converts because they come to believe it was right, and have faith? Most people would just say "oh well, even if I don't believe this is right, I better do it or God will 'get' me"..

Basically, for God to show Himself, it takes away our making our own way through life, and learning the moral lessons that need tobe learned, and the choices that need to be made that we will be judged by. It also removes faith, as you need no faith in something you know to be empirically true.

It's sort of like asking why doesn't God just end it all right now if He knows the outcome, and save everyone the 'bother'.. it's just not the way it's done.. apparently


The other thing is.. it depends on what you call 'cpnvincing'.. to be honest, the most convincing message to me in the Bible, that I truly believe we should ALL be doing, is Christs command to love one another as we love ourselves.. this is a pretty Universal message.. and if you accept that it is a good one, you may want to llook deeper into Christianity for more.

No one is perfect, and no 'religion' is 'perfect' (at this current time), and certainly not everyones view on religion/theology is perfect.. the task is to seek for yourself, and using Christ as your guide, and discover the truth.


Lastly, one thing that has been mentioned almost every time this gets brought up, be careful what you wish for.. not saying you wish for God to appear, but you may be concerned if He did.. as I'm sure a lot of people would be.. the next time the world gets to 'see' God, I doubt anyone will have the time to ponder wether or not they should have believed or not..


JMHO tough..


IN Love and Peace

JCA

[Robert's s/n]

How do you interpret those things?

MY interpretation? Well, not that it means much, but I believe we are the product of a divine cause. My problem is with reconciling the destructive tendencies of nature with a benevolent God who created them.

It depends on your definition of a miracle.

A miracle is an act of God that takes place in this time/space contiuum.

I would argue that such things as the generation and birth of a child, and all of those things you might call "natural laws" are in fact miracles, especially since we have no idea why they work the way they work,

Is a deformed child also a miracle?

Beyond those, there are such things as "miraculous" healings (as I myself have seen and experienced).

Would you briefly detail the most striking miracle?

Most who cannot accept such things as miraculous instead search for scientific explanations, but I have yet to hear any that are satisfactory.

Would you briefly describe one modern miracle that science has failed to explain?

The Bible teaches that being in the real, literal presence of God would be overwhelming for us in our physical, sinful bodies. So actual face-to-face contact is ruled out.

The Twelve sure didn't have a problem witnessing the resurrected Jesus fact-to-face. Why not allow ALL to have similiar experiences for the sake of fairness?

How out of place would it be for us, the created, to show such disdain for the creator that we ignore the signs He has given us and ask for others that (at least to us right now) might seem more convincing?

Given what's at stake(ie one's entire life), I don't think it's "disdain for the creator" nor do I think we are ignoring "the signs He has given us", which is peanuts compared to what the disciples experienced. God should be a little more involved. Providing evidence of similiar caliber as the disciples' experience would only be fair.

What makes you think people today would be different?

I don't know how people today would respond, and I'm not going to guess. But even if these people would reject the evidence, everyone still deserves an equal chance. It's like the officials allowing the Chicago Cubs to use aluminum bats while restricting the Marlins to wooden because they know the Cubs will win anyway.

------------Scratch this analogy. I wrote this in the 7th inning, and then my Marlins manufactured 8 runs in the 8th inning.