Should our culture add a new gender?

[Starlight]

I'd never paid much attention to trangenderism until recently, but what's surprised me most when reading about it is to learn that the vast majority of the world's historical non-European cultures appear to have had 3-5 genders
There are a few sheltered societies where 3rd-gender practices have survived through to the present day despite the influences of Christianity, Islam, and globalisation. Here is a brief account of a remote 5-gendered tribe in Indonesia that was studied by an Australian PhD student in 2000 (who's nowslideshow here with pictures and information about India's third-gender.

So, I wonder, should the West consider deliberately adding a new gender (or two, or three) to bring it into line with most cultures in world history (and thus accommodate the people that this pervasive cultural construct has historically accommodated)?

[Sparko]

Historically the "third gender" has been Eunuchs.


As in castrated males.


Usually done to prisoners, or slaves.

[Starlight]

Historically the "third gender" has been Eunuchs.

As in castrated males.

The recent studies I've seen on eunuchs in the ancient world lead me to believe that castration was only one possible way to be a eunuch, and that it seems to have mainly been a category for gay, asexual, and transgender men. But yes, I think describing eunuchs as a third-gender in historical Europe has merit.

[Sparko]

The recent studies I've seen on eunuchs in the ancient world lead me to believe that castration was only one possible way to be a eunuch, and that it seems to have mainly been a category for gay, asexual, and transgender men. But yes, I think describing eunuchs as a third-gender in historical Europe has merit.

You realize how rare hermaphrodites are, right? And there were no "transgenders" historically, since there was no way to transform to another gender until the 1970's. And gays are not a different gender. They are either male or female who like the same gender. So all talk about "third genders," historically, are really about "no gender" - neutering someone to make them a eunuch. They would cut off a man's testicles, and sometimes his penis too, in order to subdue him, shame him, or make him unable to have sex (so that he could guard a harem for example without being able to, um, partake)

[Starlight]

You realize how rare hermaphrodites are, right?

About 1 in 2000 depending on your definition. Not sure why that's relevant.

And there were no "transgenders" historically, since there was no way to transform to another gender until the 1970's.

Eh? Nothing ever stopped men from wearing women's clothing, putting on makeup, growing their hair longer etc.

And gays are not a different gender.

Not in modern western society. However, in the majority of historical human cultures, many bisexual or gay man would adopt the third gender and then marry a bisexual or gay man who identified as the male gender.

So all talk about "third genders," historically, are really about "no gender" - neutering someone to make them a eunuch.

Not at all. Third gender historically is about what clothes are worn, what types of jobs are done, and what type of sexual acts are performed, and who they are performed with. Nothing at all to do with cutting off body parts in general.

[Sparko]

About 1 in 2000 depending on your definition. Not sure why that's relevant.

a lot more rare than that.

Eh? Nothing ever stopped men from wearing women's clothing, putting on makeup, etc.[/quote] That is not transgender. That is cross-dressing and transvestitism. The gender doesn't change.

Not in modern western society. However, in the majority of historical human cultures, many bisexual or gay man would adopt the third gender and then marry a bisexual or gay man who identified as the male gender.

sure they did. where are you getting this stuff from? What cultures actually even had gay marriage?

Not at all. Third gender historically is about what clothes are worn, what types of jobs are done, and what type of sexual acts are performed, and who they are performed with. Nothing at all to do with cutting off body parts in general.

I think you have been smoking some funny weed, Starlight.

[mossrose]

Just because something has "always been done" doesn't mean it should be done now. I am sure that slavery has "always been done", too.

And all Starlight's op proves is the pervasiveness of sinful nature in mankind throughout the ages.

[Sparko]

Just because something has "always been done" doesn't mean it should be done now. I am sure that slavery has "always been done", too.

And all Starlight's op proves is the pervasiveness of sinful nature in mankind throughout the ages.

what he is doing is shoehorning modern ideas about LBGT and gender into history and trying to claim that historically societies were all open and liberal about such things, just like we are today.

While there were some societies, like Rome and Greece that did allow gays, and even sometimes pedophilia, I wouldn't be trying to use them as role models for our modern society. Like you said, they also endorsed slavery, and prostitution, and gladiator games, infanticide (oh wait, that does fit with Starlight's ideas), and a host of other behaviors we think of as barbaric or immoral.

But then, as fast as our society is declining, it won't be long before those behaviors become the norm for us too.

[KingsGambit]

I wonder how many of the people who do not identify as male or female would be satisfied with a third option. Wouldn't most of them be upset that their specific choice was not listed and was conflated in with just "third gender"?

[Cow Poke]

I wonder how many of the people who do not identify as male or female would be satisfied with a third option. Wouldn't most of them be upset that their specific choice was not listed and was conflated in with just "third gender"?

Why not go for the full SIXTY THREE Genders?

[Abigail]

We had this on tv a while back. These guys have a medical condition and to onlookers their transformation must seem 'magical' but it isnt. No need to add in extra genders

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2...o-boys-aged-1/

[Jedidiah]

I'd never paid much attention to trangenderism until recently, but what's surprised me most when reading about it is to learn that the vast majority of the world's historical non-European cultures appear to have had 3-5 genders rather than just two.

Since we, in the US at least, are not part of a non-European based culture this does not seem to have any pertinence to us.

Many cultures perceived these third gender people to be somewhat 'magical', as their abnormally-gendered nature was often explained by stories about them having both a male and female spirit within them, or similar, and so third-gendered people were often involved as shamans in magical rituals or in blessing children.

Many primitive cultures considered anyone not normal to be magical. Idiots, people showing signs of what we would call serious mental illness, even autistics, were often seen in this light. How does this apply to the west today? Not at all.

So, should the modern West add a third gender for those transgender people of either birth sex who want to be 'gender neutral'?

No we should recognize this for what it is, serious mental illness.

ETA: In other words, instead of aping primitive misunderstandings we should take a rational sensible approach.

[stfoskey15]

I don't really care one way or the other. I think it depends a lot on what transgender people think, as well as how practical it would be for society to add multiple genders. Going past three or four genders would probably get too complicated.