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Should our culture add a new gender?

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  • Should our culture add a new gender?

    I'd never paid much attention to trangenderism until recently, but what's surprised me most when reading about it is to learn that the vast majority of the world's historical non-European cultures appear to have had 3-5 genders rather than just two.

    In these societies if a person felt that their gender role didn't fully apply to them, they could renounce their birth gender and become 'third gendered'. Some societies broke this third gender into male, and female versions (thus having 4 genders). Generally the clothing for the third gender was a mixture of men's and women's clothing, and people of this gender were allowed freedom to pick and choose between “men's” and “women's” work in terms of their vocations. People of the third gender could marry either gender, and such marriages seem to have been thought of as 'heterosexual' because it was people of different genders getting married even if the people were of the same biological sex.

    Many cultures perceived these third gender people to be somewhat 'magical', as their abnormally-gendered nature was often explained by stories about them having both a male and female spirit within them, or similar, and so third-gendered people were often involved as shamans in magical rituals or in blessing children. Some cultures split the tribe's 'magic' practitioner into a gender of their own – they were 'beyond gender' or a gender that 'summed up' all the others – a fifth gender. Anyone born a hermaphrodite was instantly a candidate for this fifth gender, but anyone who took on certain jobs (e.g. shaman) became fifth gender by virtue of those jobs.

    It surprised me to learn how pervasive this third-gender type of custom seems to have been. It was documented in more than 130 different tribal groups in North America, anthropologists have described it as “pervasive” in historical Africa and South America too. Every island people across the pacific seems to have their own word for third-gendered people, and it seems that in large parts of the Indian sub-continent as well as much of Asia the practice was followed also. By contrast, most of ancient Europe seems to have been fairly firmly two-gendered (although the official Roman religion prior to Christianity had third-gender priests).

    European explorers seem to have been particularly confused by third-gender customs whenever they encountered them, and we thus see accounts like:
    “I have submitted substantial evidence that those [native American] men who, both here [California] and farther inland, are observed in the dress, clothing and character of women - there being two or three such in each village - pass as sodomites by profession.... They are called joyas, and are held in great esteem.” - Don Pedro Fages, 1775

    “[In this tribe in Africa there are] certayne Chibadi, which are Men attyred like Women, and behave themselves womanly, ashamed to be called men; are also married to men, and esteeme that unnatural damnation an honor” - Samuel Purchas 1625, vol. 2, bk. IX, chap. 12, sec. 5, p. 1558

    There are a few sheltered societies where 3rd-gender practices have survived through to the present day despite the influences of Christianity, Islam, and globalisation. Here is a brief account of a remote 5-gendered tribe in Indonesia that was studied by an Australian PhD student in 2000 (who's now an associate professor at a NZ university).

    In the West though, we've always had just two genders. For us, “transgenderism” usually means people changing their gender from one gender to another. We don't have a widely accepted notion of a person rejecting both genders to become 'third gendered'. While I'm aware of a small number of transgender people trying to do this, they seem to immediately hit the problem that English doesn't have any widely accepted third-gender pronouns – people say “he, him, his” or “she, her, hers” and attempts to use “they, them, theirs” as third-gender sound pretty clunky and attempts at creating new ones such as “ze, hir, hirs” don't seem to be catching on fast. In the historical cultures with a 3rd gender, gay people as much as transgender people seem to have been the main users of it (in order to get a same-sex marriage), but given the modern West now has same-sex marriage, I don't see that there's likely to be much desire among many gay people to declare themselves 3rd gender were we to introduce it as an option.

    So, should the modern West add a third gender for those transgender people of either birth sex who want to be 'gender neutral'? Or is the better construct one where there are 4 gender roles, and so anyone born male or born female can simply voluntarily renounce their birth gender and move to the 'not-male' or 'not-female' gender as appropriate? Or are we better with 5 genders, where there is a gender-neutral one as well as the other two?

    India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, have all moved in the last few years to give legal recognition to and protection for their traditional third-gender, members of which have experienced quite a lot of persecution over the last ~100 years as a result of influence from outside cultural and religious sources that were intolerant of such practices. ABC News has a little slideshow here with pictures and information about India's third-gender.

    So, I wonder, should the West consider deliberately adding a new gender (or two, or three) to bring it into line with most cultures in world history (and thus accommodate the people that this pervasive cultural construct has historically accommodated)?
    Last edited by Starlight; 08-30-2016, 06:26 AM.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

  • #2
    Historically the "third gender" has been Eunuchs.


    As in castrated males.


    Usually done to prisoners, or slaves.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Historically the "third gender" has been Eunuchs.

      As in castrated males.
      The recent studies I've seen on eunuchs in the ancient world lead me to believe that castration was only one possible way to be a eunuch, and that it seems to have mainly been a category for gay, asexual, and transgender men. But yes, I think describing eunuchs as a third-gender in historical Europe has merit.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        The recent studies I've seen on eunuchs in the ancient world lead me to believe that castration was only one possible way to be a eunuch, and that it seems to have mainly been a category for gay, asexual, and transgender men. But yes, I think describing eunuchs as a third-gender in historical Europe has merit.
        You realize how rare hermaphrodites are, right? And there were no "transgenders" historically, since there was no way to transform to another gender until the 1970's. And gays are not a different gender. They are either male or female who like the same gender. So all talk about "third genders," historically, are really about "no gender" - neutering someone to make them a eunuch. They would cut off a man's testicles, and sometimes his penis too, in order to subdue him, shame him, or make him unable to have sex (so that he could guard a harem for example without being able to, um, partake)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          You realize how rare hermaphrodites are, right?
          About 1 in 2000 depending on your definition. Not sure why that's relevant.

          And there were no "transgenders" historically, since there was no way to transform to another gender until the 1970's.
          Eh? Nothing ever stopped men from wearing women's clothing, putting on makeup, growing their hair longer etc.

          And gays are not a different gender.
          Not in modern western society. However, in the majority of historical human cultures, many bisexual or gay man would adopt the third gender and then marry a bisexual or gay man who identified as the male gender.

          So all talk about "third genders," historically, are really about "no gender" - neutering someone to make them a eunuch.
          Not at all. Third gender historically is about what clothes are worn, what types of jobs are done, and what type of sexual acts are performed, and who they are performed with. Nothing at all to do with cutting off body parts in general.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            About 1 in 2000 depending on your definition. Not sure why that's relevant.
            a lot more rare than that.

            Eh? Nothing ever stopped men from wearing women's clothing, putting on makeup, etc.[/quote] That is not transgender. That is cross-dressing and transvestitism. The gender doesn't change.

            Not in modern western society. However, in the majority of historical human cultures, many bisexual or gay man would adopt the third gender and then marry a bisexual or gay man who identified as the male gender.
            sure they did. where are you getting this stuff from? What cultures actually even had gay marriage?

            Not at all. Third gender historically is about what clothes are worn, what types of jobs are done, and what type of sexual acts are performed, and who they are performed with. Nothing at all to do with cutting off body parts in general.
            I think you have been smoking some funny weed, Starlight.

            Comment


            • #7
              Just because something has "always been done" doesn't mean it should be done now. I am sure that slavery has "always been done", too.

              And all Starlight's op proves is the pervasiveness of sinful nature in mankind throughout the ages.


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                Just because something has "always been done" doesn't mean it should be done now. I am sure that slavery has "always been done", too.

                And all Starlight's op proves is the pervasiveness of sinful nature in mankind throughout the ages.
                what he is doing is shoehorning modern ideas about LBGT and gender into history and trying to claim that historically societies were all open and liberal about such things, just like we are today.

                While there were some societies, like Rome and Greece that did allow gays, and even sometimes pedophilia, I wouldn't be trying to use them as role models for our modern society. Like you said, they also endorsed slavery, and prostitution, and gladiator games, infanticide (oh wait, that does fit with Starlight's ideas), and a host of other behaviors we think of as barbaric or immoral.

                But then, as fast as our society is declining, it won't be long before those behaviors become the norm for us too.

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                • #9
                  I wonder how many of the people who do not identify as male or female would be satisfied with a third option. Wouldn't most of them be upset that their specific choice was not listed and was conflated in with just "third gender"?
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    I wonder how many of the people who do not identify as male or female would be satisfied with a third option. Wouldn't most of them be upset that their specific choice was not listed and was conflated in with just "third gender"?
                    Why not go for the full SIXTY THREE Genders?
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      We had this on tv a while back. These guys have a medical condition and to onlookers their transformation must seem 'magical' but it isnt. No need to add in extra genders

                      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2...o-boys-aged-1/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        I'd never paid much attention to trangenderism until recently, but what's surprised me most when reading about it is to learn that the vast majority of the world's historical non-European cultures appear to have had 3-5 genders rather than just two.
                        Since we, in the US at least, are not part of a non-European based culture this does not seem to have any pertinence to us.

                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Many cultures perceived these third gender people to be somewhat 'magical', as their abnormally-gendered nature was often explained by stories about them having both a male and female spirit within them, or similar, and so third-gendered people were often involved as shamans in magical rituals or in blessing children.
                        Many primitive cultures considered anyone not normal to be magical. Idiots, people showing signs of what we would call serious mental illness, even autistics, were often seen in this light. How does this apply to the west today? Not at all.

                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        So, should the modern West add a third gender for those transgender people of either birth sex who want to be 'gender neutral'?
                        No we should recognize this for what it is, serious mental illness.

                        ETA: In other words, instead of aping primitive misunderstandings we should take a rational sensible approach.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                        • #13
                          I don't really care one way or the other. I think it depends a lot on what transgender people think, as well as how practical it would be for society to add multiple genders. Going past three or four genders would probably get too complicated.
                          Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

                          "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

                          "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

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