A thought on Crimea (Butler Shaffer's anyway)

[Darth Executor]

If Obama didn't hesitate to throw Qaddafi under the bus, do you think he'll stick the US military out for white people?

Qaddafi was never our friend. And I don't expect anything good of Obama, we're discussing hypotheticals.

The Ukrainian revolution was a political/bureaucratic project of the State Department,

This is why I stopped taking most neo-reactionaries seriously. This Jim fella hyperventilates a bit too much for his own good. The Ukrainian revolution is primarily an ethnic conflict. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar or an ignoramus. Ukraine is extremely poor and has spent its post-soviet years being robbed blind by Russian oligarchs and Ukrainian oligarchs aligned with Russia, and they've finally reached their limit. Neither you nor Jim have any clue how much Russia is hated in Eastern Europe. If a disease wiped out every Russian on the planet there would be non-stop dancing in the streets. That US diplomats would naturally interfere and offer "help" that is self-serving is natural and expected. In fact "diplomat" is just a polite euphemism for spies, infiltrators and saboteurs. It's what they get paid to do.

it got out of hand when some of the protesters actually showed themselves brave enough to fight hard enough to break the barricades, and now Russia is moving troops around to defend the Russian-speaking Eastern population and yank Obama's chain on the international stage.

Putin is almost certainly a sociopath and like Obama anything that comes out of his mouth should be presumed to be a calculated lie until proven otherwise. You should know better than to believe garbage like "defend the Russian-speaking Eastern population", which were never in any danger. Though they should be, given that most Russians in non-Russian EE countries are generally loyal to Russia rather than the countries they infe... excuse me, enriched. Russia is the Mexico of East Europe.

Call of Duty scenarios aside, Barack Obama is neither a diplomat nor a general, and will cave because he has no idea what to do with a military other than cut its funding.

I don't think anyone here expects competence from Obama.

[Epoetker]

Qaddafi was never our friend. And I don't expect anything good of Obama, we're discussing hypotheticals.

I don't expect 'friends' in the Middle East, but I would expect that a dictator who had been striving as hard as possible to make itself the friendliest and most eager to please among its neighbors, comparatively speaking, and who had no particular present or future designs upon American interests, to be either ignored, or dealt with as the dictator keeping a lid on his various Islamist craies. Of course, that's not how the State Department rolls.

This is why I stopped taking most neo-reactionaries seriously. This Jim fella hyperventilates a bit too much for his own good. The Ukrainian revolution is primarily an ethnic conflict.

Jim doesn't really talk all that much about intra-ethnic conflicts between various shades of Slav, because he's not knowledgeable about that. He talks about corruption in large organizations and universal human relations, because that's what he knows. If I wanted an ethnic map of the conflict, I could motor on over to Steve's and find all the fun ethnic details, with photos:

Where's the civilizational divide in Ukraine?

Which Sergei Aksenov is which in Crimea?

Richest Man in Ukraine is blond Muslim

Right sector v. politicians in Ukraine

Crimea, fyi

And the best one:

Another colossal Slavic politician

The Dusk in Autumn guy also has a good analysis that the State Department may have wanted to read before losing control of its revolution (granted, doing something important-sounding rather than owning the mission seems to be the inspiration in those parts.
)

If you want high-level analysis of intellectual inspiration for popular revolutionary movements among the upper classes, read Moldbug or Jim, as a history of government work, systems administration and computer programming prepares you well for that. If you want the most accurate up-to-the minute information on ground-level common man experience of racial conflict, it's probably better to go with a Steve Sailer (marketer) or Akinokure guy (schoolteacher,) because their day-to-day employment success requires sorting and categorizing people groups based on what they actually want, and will want again tomorrow.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar or an ignoramus. Ukraine is extremely poor and has spent its post-soviet years being robbed blind by Russian oligarchs and Ukrainian oligarchs aligned with Russia, and they've finally reached their limit. Neither you nor Jim have any clue how much Russia is hated in Eastern Europe. If a disease wiped out every Russian on the planet there would be non-stop dancing in the streets. That US diplomats would naturally interfere and offer "help" that is self-serving is natural and expected. In fact "diplomat" is just a polite euphemism for spies, infiltrators and saboteurs. It's what they get paid to do.

Thank you for the much-needed dose of cynicism, but I assure you I'm not the one in the greatest need of it! My primary goal was to establish the US State Departments particularly pernicious, sociopathic, and careerist way of playing the game, and the mainstream press's near complete silence on the issue (of course, the press is part of the Cathedral too, so why wouldn't they cover for their fellow hive people?)

Putin is almost certainly a sociopath and like Obama anything that comes out of his mouth should be presumed to be a calculated lie until proven otherwise. You should know better than to believe garbage like "defend the Russian-speaking Eastern population", which were never in any danger. Though they should be, given that most Russians in non-Russian EE countries are generally loyal to Russia rather than the countries they infe... excuse me, enriched. Russia is the Mexico of East Europe.

True, Putin one of quite a few bad options. Whether he's the worst is what Ukrainians have to decide for themselves, insofar as the decision is theirs. My own opinion is that while Putin is bad, the intellectual crackheads at the US State Department and within the EU are far, far worse.

I don't think anyone here expects competence from Obama.

Good thing we got that cleared up! Sadly, he is not expected to be competent, and would indeed be a threat to his handlers if he was. Insofar as we have a Ukraine policy, it's 'whatever makes Victoria Nuland's resume look good.'

[seanD]

Crimea votes to stay with Russia...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...ussia/6484251/

Which means that if there ever was a moment Russia would give up its hold on Crimea, it definitely won't happen now. So now it comes down to what nuclear power A will do in response next week after threatening nuclear power B to back down, and what B will do to counter any moves towards that threat.

[Pinoy]

Nuclear Power A will just say to the world

"Crimea made a democratic choice, so we have to support their decision". (I saw it in the stars.)

[seanD]

Nuclear Power A will just say to the world

"Crimea made a democratic choice, so we have to support their decision". (I saw it in the stars.)

They could end up blinking like they did with Syria. But, so far, that isn't what they're saying about Crimea...

In a telephone call to Russian President Vladi*mir Putin — his third in two weeks — President Obama said that the referendum “would never be recognized by the United States and the international community” and that “we are prepared to impose additional costs on Russia for its actions,” the White House said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...572_story.html

And the Ukraine apparently has a lot more at stake with other international parties than just the US.

[Epoetker]

They could end up blinking like they did with Syria. But, so far, that isn't what they're saying about Crimea...



And the Ukraine apparently has a lot more at stake with other international parties than just the US.

The EU more than the US will determine the course of this conflict, much like in Libya. Unlike in Libya, Russia isn't playing, and until details come up on the extent of the 'costs' and their relevance for Russia, this falls into the category of "That's some pretty big talk, Little Britches."

[Truthseeker]

Byron King (I think?) says that the Crimea is to Russia as Cuba with Soviet missiles in it was to the USA.

[Pinoy]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/wo...ials.html?_r=1

So, russia defies us sanction

[Darth Executor]

I don't expect 'friends' in the Middle East, but I would expect that a dictator who had been striving as hard as possible to make itself the friendliest and most eager to please among its neighbors, comparatively speaking, and who had no particular present or future designs upon American interests, to be either ignored, or dealt with as the dictator keeping a lid on his various Islamist craies. Of course, that's not how the State Department rolls.

Dumbocracy serves the cause of Progress better in the long run. Plus, he was slaughtering rather indiscriminately. That's pretty taboo these days.

Jim doesn't really talk all that much about intra-ethnic conflicts between various shades of Slav, because he's not knowledgeable about that. He talks about corruption in large organizations and universal human relations, because that's what he knows.

Yes, Jim has a hammer which he swings blindly at every problem that comes his way. I can forgive his lack of familiarity with Slavic butthurt. His propensity for introducing his pet Theory of Everything into every scenario? That kills credibility, because now I know he doesn't actually know.

If I wanted an ethnic map of the conflict, I could motor on over to Steve's and find all the fun ethnic details, with photos:

Where's the civilizational divide in Ukraine?

Which Sergei Aksenov is which in Crimea?

Richest Man in Ukraine is blond Muslim

Right sector v. politicians in Ukraine

Crimea, fyi

And the best one:

Another colossal Slavic politician

The Dusk in Autumn guy also has a good analysis that the State Department may have wanted to read before losing control of its revolution (granted, doing something important-sounding rather than owning the mission seems to be the inspiration in those parts.
)

Sailer is only slightly better informed, though to his credit he opinionates a lot less as a result.

If you want high-level analysis of intellectual inspiration for popular revolutionary movements among the upper classes, read Moldbug or Jim, as a history of government work, systems administration and computer programming prepares you well for that.

I think I've gotten just about all that I'm gonna get out of Moldbug. His of late refusal to interact with critics limits his usefulness.

Thank you for the much-needed dose of cynicism, but I assure you I'm not the one in the greatest need of it! My primary goal was to establish the US State Departments particularly pernicious, sociopathic, and careerist way of playing the game, and the mainstream press's near complete silence on the issue (of course, the press is part of the Cathedral too, so why wouldn't they cover for their fellow hive people?)

There is a time and place for everything. It's pretty clear in this case that the US (or Obama, at least) had no real interest in Eastern Europe, let alone had any reason to risk another foreign debacle in Russia's backyard to gain, what? Ukraine doesn't have anything worth the trouble. East Europe in general doesn't.

True, Putin one of quite a few bad options. Whether he's the worst is what Ukrainians have to decide for themselves, insofar as the decision is theirs. My own opinion is that while Putin is bad, the intellectual crackheads at the US State Department and within the EU are far, far worse.

The crackheads, while bad, are something we have inflicted on ourselves. They could be crushed in an instant, if willful self delusion didn't rule most of the Western world. Putin OTOH is a muscular evil that imposes himself on others. While he may technically not be as bad, he's the kind of bad that I would side with the crackheads over, if one could get some drug induced rage out of them. How one fights a rampaging bull is different from how one fights the flu.

[Truthseeker]

Let us note the significance of Obama's invocation of "international law" against Russia's "seizure" of Crimea. Michael S. Rozeff pointed out that part of the international law is in effect a prohibition against a minority of a nation declaring independence and seceding, like what the South did before the American "civil" war. The Declaration of Independence of 1776 would have "violated" international law.

How far has America fallen!

[Epoetker]

There is a time and place for everything. It's pretty clear in this case that the US (or Obama, at least) had no real interest in Eastern Europe, let alone had any reason to risk another foreign debacle in Russia's backyard to gain, what? Ukraine doesn't have anything worth the trouble. East Europe in general doesn't.

You speak of the US as though you were speaking of a monolithic entity, whereas it most clearly is not. The US had no real interest in Libya either, but certain people in the US government seemed to think it worthwhile to proceed with diplomatic and military measures against Kaddafi, which are absolutely not in the national interest of the US as a country but make for good bullet points on their government job resumes. The great thing about a poor country with pre-existing ethnic divisions is that it's always up for grabs among careerist government diplomats and State Department officials looking to make a name for themselves by starting international drama of one sort or another, and playing one faction against each other. Not a conspiracy, but a continuing opportunity!

In other words, Ukraine is game to them:

Victoria Nuland was living the Moldbug government-job life, and it is a fine tradition:

Another source of venal satisfaction is that when you help people, or appear to help them, you become a patron. You gain ownership over them. When you help overthrow the dictator of Egypt, for example, you become in a sense the new government of Egypt. The old dictator was a strongman - the new dictator is a weakman, because he owes his job to someone else. That someone is you - the collective you, but you nonetheless. If you decide you don't like your weakman, it's easy to find another weakman.

But, as our gay diplomat in Benghazi may have belatedly discovered, those guvment administrators who pick up on callously altruistic opportunities out of boredom will abandon them, and anyone in the country affected, out of the same boredom later on, usually as soon as it fails to serve their immediate needs. Rest assured that areas under Russian control in Crimea will not be anywhere near as susceptible to State Department shenanigans, for the simple reason that ordered countries are not career growth opportunities for Cathedral apparatchiks.

[Paprika]

Crimea votes to stay with Russia...

Source: email by Dr. Norman Bailey

Granted that hypocrisy is the mother’s milk of both domestic and international politics, but the outcry from Europe and the United States over the Russian seizure of Crimea really is beyond the pale.

The current provisional Ukrainian government is the product of a coup d’état.

Crimea was transferred to Ukraine in 1953 by Khruschchev (who was born in Ukraine) without asking anyone in the Crimea whether they wanted to be transferred or not. Even former Soviet General Secretary Gorbachev stated, “…Crimea was merged with Ukraine…without asking the people and now the people are correcting that mistake. This should be welcomed rather than declaring sanction.”

Russia will have no more access to the Mediterranean from Crimea now than it already had under its long-term lease on the naval base in Sevastopol.

As to forceful detachment of territory from a sovereign state, Kosovo was separated from Serbia through the U.S. and European bombing of Serbia until the Serbs agreed.

© Copyright Original Source

http://pjmedia.com/spengler/2014/03/...rainian-folly/

[seanD]

It's become the bugged phone call wars.

Don't know if this is going to be removed by Tweb mods. There's cussing, but they censored it; not sure what the policy here is about that. Oh well, I thought the phone conversation between Shufrych and Tymoshenko was pretty hilarious...

http://rt.com/news/tymoshenko-calls-destroy-russia-917/

He's denying it, but she apparently has confirmed that it's legit. These female diplomats sure do have some potty mouths This girl talks tough, but of course actions speaks louder than words I guess. We'll see what happens in May when the first set of Ukrainian elections take place. Me thinks this is far from over.