I speak in truth in Christ.

[soondak]

I speak truth in Christ-I am not lying , my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit- I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I wish that I myself were cursed and cut off fro, Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption of sons; theirs the divine glory, the convents the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Romans 8:28 written by Paul.

I like Paul I love you unto death.

[Salty]

Soondak,

Your brothers want you to renounce your idolatry and return to the faith of your fathers.

[soondak]

Did you know there were Christian-Jews that died in the in the trains going to the camps?
I often fantasize that I could put my convictions to reality die with my fellows. Die for God.
God is more important to me even than other Jews that is why I chose Yeshua, I want God more than I want my fellow man and one smile from him is worth even more than Avat Yisrael.
I am sticking to my convictions how many times have you read the Torah and Haftorah and thought Yeshua is the Messiah but never acted on it?
I am living the life G-d wants me to.
And someday soon I will be in heaven.


Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Did you know there were Christian-Jews that died in the in the trains going to the camps?

Sure, there were millions of gypsies and homosexuals also killed by Hitler in the concentration camps. Are you a homosexual gypsy?

[Salty]

Did you know there were Christian-Jews that died in the in the trains going to the camps?

Sorry, I'm missing the relevance.

I often fantasize that I could put my convictions to reality die with my fellows. Die for God.

But the whole message of the Hebrew bible is to live for G-d. That's what He wants. The Chrisian obsession with death is just... not healthy.

God is more important to me even than other Jews that is why I chose Yeshua,

Is Jss among the gods your people knew when Moses wrote down Deut. 13:2? No, I didn't think so. That verse was written for you. Please pay attention.

I am sticking to my convictions how many times have you read the Torah and Haftorah and thought Yeshua is the Messiah but never acted on it?

Um, never. For the first 35 years of my life, I did believe. Then I really read what they said, and discovered that Jss was not, and could never be (a) the messiah, (b) G-d incarnate, or (c) an atoneing sacrifice for anyone's sins other than his own. Unless, of course, G-d is a liar and a cheat, which I know He isn't.

[...]

Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

That's the gentile nations speaking there.

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

And that is the very description of Israel and their treatment at the hand of the gentile nations for the last 2,000 years.

[shunyadragon]

I speak truth in Christ-I am not lying , my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit- I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I wish that I myself were cursed and cut off fro, Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption of sons; theirs the divine glory, the convents the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Romans 8:28 written by Paul.

I like Paul I love you unto death.

An emotional appeal such as this is nothing more than an appeal to emotion. Believers in many different faiths strongly believe in their faith, mine as a Baha'i, others as Jews, Muslims, or Zoroastrians believe they are not lying, and their conscience confirms it.

I personally have great sorrow and increasing anguish in my heart, because of the suffering and violence in the world by those that cling to ancient world views such as yours. But I fully realize that such an emotional appeal from a fallible human perspective does not translate into truth.

[soondak]

Then I really read what they said, and discovered that Jss was not, and could never be (a) the messiah, (b) G-d incarnate, or (c) an atoning sacrifice for anyone's sins other than his own. Unless, of course, G-d is a liar and a cheat, which I know He isn't.

Why can't Jesus be G-d incarnate?

And how do you not know that I haven't lived everyone of my days for Christ?

[learning]

Micah 6 verse 8 He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the L*rd require of you? To act justly, and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your G*d. I think Soondak does this in helping homeless people. Soondak, just keep doing what you are doing. You are showing mercy, far more important than words, though w our stories are important too. If you keep anything of your heritage, keep that story sharing, for i see how our Redeemer works in our hearts and mind in..

[Menachem]

Did you know there were Christian-Jews that died in the in the trains going to the camps?

Point?

I often fantasize that I could put my convictions to reality die with my fellows. Die for God.

Are you seriously that crazy?

God is more important to me even than other Jews that is why I chose Yeshua, I want God more than I want my fellow man and one smile from him is worth even more than Avat Yisrael.

funny! you give up on your people to worship another person who happened to be a member of your people two thousand years ago. Amazing! You go from a people(the Jewish people) who worship G-d, to a person(yourself) who worships a Jew who died two thousand years ago.

I am sticking to my convictions how many times have you read the Torah and Haftorah and thought Yeshua is the Messiah but never acted on it?

None! It is obvious you do not know what the relationship is between the Torah and Haftarot beyond what wikipedia will tell you when you google it.

I am living the life G-d wants me to.

Good just dont expect the Jewish people to follow you into it.

Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

[/quote]

Question: Since when did Jesus see his offspring or live a prolonged life in verse 10? No this does not say afterlife in the Hebrew text nor does it say "spiritual offspring" so dont try and pull that one either. Explain how Jesus fit this verse. He had neither children nor lived a very long life.

[sylvius]

Question: Since when did Jesus see his offspring or live a prolonged life in verse 10? No this does not say afterlife in the Hebrew text nor does it say "spiritual offspring" so dont try and pull that one either. Explain how Jesus fit this verse. He had neither children nor lived a very long life.

John 12:24,

Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit.

Fruit wherein is His seed (offspring)

פְּרִי אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ

(Genesis 1:12)

[shunyadragon]

Then I really read what they said, and discovered that Jssus was not, and could never be (a) the messiah, (b) G-d incarnate, or (c) an atoning sacrifice for anyone's sins other than his own. Unless, of course, G-d is a liar and a cheat, which I know He isn't.

There are more choices than this.

Why can't Jesus be G-d incarnate?

He could be, but than again he could be the spiritual manifestation of the fullfillment of the promised one, the Son of God, and the Messiah.

And how do you not know that I haven't lived everyone of my days for Christ?

I do not know, but how do you know that I have not lied everyone of my days with what I believe.

[Salty]

Why can't Jesus be G-d incarnate?

G-d said in Numbers 23:19 that He is not a man. Because He also never changes (Malachi 3:6), He will never become a man, or come in man's flesh. And Numbers 23:19 is not temporal. Since God is eternal, and his word and promises are eternal, then if He ever did become a man, His word in Numbers 23:19 would be false, and that can never be.

And how do you not know that I haven't lived everyone of my days for Christ?

Too many negatives in that sentence for me to understand what you're asking. But I'll assume you're referring to me saying that the point of the Hebrew bible was how to live for G-d. I don't know anything about you except for what you write here, so all I can do is respond to that. And what you wrote was that you fantasize about dying for G-d. That is, in my opinion, a sad, sick and twisted response to G-d's instruction for you to live your life for Him (and "Him" ain't your man-god).

[Salty]

Then I really read what they said, and discovered that Jss was not, and could never be (a) the messiah, (b) G-d incarnate, or (c) an atoning sacrifice for anyone's sins other than his own. Unless, of course, G-d is a liar and a cheat, which I know He isn't.

There are more choices than this.

Name them.

Here's the context:

In the Hebrew bible, G-d said He is not a man, nor a Son of Man. If he then becomes a man, or "comes in the flesh", as the New Testament and Christians claim, then He's a liar and a cheat.

In the Hebrew bible, G-d said repeatedly that human sacrifice is an abomination and completely unacceptable to Him. And yet Paul and the New Testament have a man's sacrifice becoming not only acceptable for his sins, but for the whole world's. If G-d really said that, He's a liar and a cheat.

In the Hebrew bible, G-d gave clear directions on how to recognize the messiah by his deeds. Jss accomplished none of them. Instead, we're told by the NT that G-d hid a bunch of clues and other messianic prophecies inside the context, kind of like the Hidden Pictures in Children's Highlights magazine. He gave the real prophecies to the people He chose, and yet the NT says G-d put a veil over their eyes so they couldn't understand them. And these clues are such that the Gentiles can understand them because, what a coincidence, they make the messiah look just like all the other man-god saviors they've had for centuries. Sorry, but that's not a very honest thing to do.

Now, I think we all know G-d really isn't, and cannot be, a liar or a cheat. So that means you have to pick which book contains the lies, the Hebrew bible, or the NT. Can't be neither option. And there are no more choices, not for Christians, Jews or Noahides.

[learning]

What about why Moses was not allowed into the Holy Land? have you ever wondered why just because Moses had a loss of temper, that was the reason he was not allowed into the Holy Land? But what if there were something more that we were missing? what if *striking* the stone to turn it into water was to represent something or someone else, whom was to be only struck once, not twice

[John Goddard]

Name them.

Here's the context:

In the Hebrew bible, G-d said He is not a man, nor a Son of Man. If he then becomes a man, or "comes in the flesh", as the New Testament and Christians claim, then He's a liar and a cheat.

In the Hebrew bible, G-d said repeatedly that human sacrifice is an abomination and completely unacceptable to Him. And yet Paul and the New Testament have a man's sacrifice becoming not only acceptable for his sins, but for the whole world's. If G-d really said that, He's a liar and a cheat.

In the Hebrew bible, G-d gave clear directions on how to recognize the messiah by his deeds. Jss accomplished none of them. Instead, we're told by the NT that G-d hid a bunch of clues and other messianic prophecies inside the context, kind of like the Hidden Pictures in Children's Highlights magazine. He gave the real prophecies to the people He chose, and yet the NT says G-d put a veil over their eyes so they couldn't understand them. And these clues are such that the Gentiles can understand them because, what a coincidence, they make the messiah look just like all the other man-god saviors they've had for centuries. Sorry, but that's not a very honest thing to do.

Now, I think we all know G-d really isn't, and cannot be, a liar or a cheat. So that means you have to pick which book contains the lies, the Hebrew bible, or the NT. Can't be neither option. And there are no more choices, not for Christians, Jews or Noahides.

Well, you should consider that some Christians aren't Trinitarians and have a different interpretation of his deity and sacrifice in the NT.

Like me, I say Jesus was born entirely human but obeyed God to the death and didn't run from his task like Jonah did. Not as an animal sacrifice, but sacrifice as a martyred prophet.

So then because he obeyed God, Jesus is worthy of position as Messiah who is King of the World with authority to show mercy to those who repent of sin. That's how Jesus saves each person, no different than as a Judge like Moses or David.

But being the top guy, we have to listen to him as we would God, so he acts instead of God for us, again like Moses did. There's where the deity position comes in, not as a deity, but a man with the power of one given by God. Example:

Exodus 4:16 ...thou shalt be to him instead of God.

Given all that, my view of Jesus agrees entirely with the Tanach, and is a lot harder to argue against.