Where is Isa (Jesus of Islam) buried?

[Dan Zebiri]

Barnasha,

When you asked me : 'so you think Jesus failed?'

I answered your question directly, thus :

Not at all! Thats just your theory and assumption, that he had so-called 'failed' by being crucified to the cross.

Theories like yours are born in a vacuum, detached from the facts of history, that actually record down the details from the earliest accounts extant for the life of Christ Jesus.

It can hardly be a failure when Christ Himself mentioned, and indeed, predicted His own death by crucifixion 2,000 plus years ago while he was here walking around with His disciples.

In fact, Jesus spoke about His death and resurrection on at least THREE TIMES as recorded by the Gospels.

In Matthew,Jesus was strongly discouraged by his follower Peter, from ever going to his death on the Cross, perhaps you, Barnasha are also like Peter, who assume speculatively that it is a failure for Jesus Christ to die on a Roman gibbet (cross) - so ignominously!

Just look at how Jesus reacted to Peter's disavowal of the Cross for Him, and you will learn how far mistaken your speculation about 'failure on the Cross' is! :-

Matthew 24: 21 - 23:
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he - Jesus Christ, must BE KILLED and on the third day be raised to life.


22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

So, you see, barney, it was clearly NEVER A FAILURE for Jesus to be crucified on the Cross.

The REAL Jesus Christ - of factual History, not of fiction; He himself disagrees with your curious & speculative theory that asserts it is " failure" for Jesus to crucified!

For Christ, going to be killed at the hands of men 2,000+ years ago, is really part and parcel OF THE WILL OF GOD, and of God's PLAN itself.

Thats WHY Jesus harshly rebuked Peter his disciple, when he was so keen to obstruct Jesus from getting to Jesus' death at the hands of men in Jerusalem, this was the only time when Jesus labelled Peter 'Satan', THATS how severely wrong Peter had been.

"Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind THE THINGS OF GOD, but the things of men."

Do you also wish to be addressed as 'satan' by Christ? Jesus Christ was concerned with only ONE THING in His life and mission - TO CARRY OUT THE THINGS OF GOD -GOD'S PLANS WHILE he was on the earth.

And so, going to be killed by the hands of men, 2000 years ago, in Jerusalem, was part of God's plan for Jesus Christ. Its ludicrous and nonsensical to claim that it was a 'failure' for Jesus to have undergone that episode!

So,let us continue the dialog....Okay?

I replied your question, the least you can do is to give me your thoughtful response.

Dan.

we weren't talking about you, but some "muslim views" you referred to, which don't seem to match what it says in the quran.

apparently you think Jesus was weak, but I know he was strong.




really? never heard that one. definitely has nothing to do with the quran or sunnah (the basis of whatever 'sunni' is, is)...

[barnasha]

Barnasha,

When you asked me : 'so you think Jesus failed?'

I answered your question directly, thus :

Not at all! Thats just your theory and assumption

It is? I never assumed you thought so.

[Dan Zebiri]

Whats wrong with you my friend, is it too difficult for you to STICK TO THE ISSUE, and address the points - that you yourself raised, in this particular dialog topic??

And I thought you could at least demonstrate some rationality to conduct a meaningful, level headed discussion on this. Why are you shying away so suddenly now?

Dan.

It is? I never assumed you thought so.

[barnasha]

Dan, your responses always break out into a diatribe to such an extent that I do not have the time or energy to read them all.

I will be glad to address your arguments, could you do me a favor and sum them up or cite them from your previous posts?

You said:

So, you see, barney, it was clearly NEVER A FAILURE for Jesus to be crucified on the Cross.

My point was that JESUS was not the one who failed, it was the people who tried to have him killed. THOSE PEOPLE failed. Because in the end, did Jesus stay dead? .................

[mudcake]

Barnasha,

When you asked me : 'so you think Jesus failed?'

I answered your question directly, thus :

Not at all! Thats just your theory and assumption, that he had so-called 'failed' by being crucified to the cross.

Theories like yours are born in a vacuum, detached from the facts of history, that actually record down the details from the earliest accounts extant for the life of Christ Jesus.

It can hardly be a failure when Christ Himself mentioned, and indeed, predicted His own death by crucifixion 2,000 plus years ago while he was here walking around with His disciples.

In fact, Jesus spoke about His death and resurrection on at least THREE TIMES as recorded by the Gospels.

In Matthew,Jesus was strongly discouraged by his follower Peter, from ever going to his death on the Cross, perhaps you, Barnasha are also like Peter, who assume speculatively that it is a failure for Jesus Christ to die on a Roman gibbet (cross) - so ignominously!

Just look at how Jesus reacted to Peter's disavowal of the Cross for Him, and you will learn how far mistaken your speculation about 'failure on the Cross' is! :-

Matthew 24: 21 - 23:
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he - Jesus Christ, must BE KILLED and on the third day be raised to life.


22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

So, you see, barney, it was clearly NEVER A FAILURE for Jesus to be crucified on the Cross.

The REAL Jesus Christ - of factual History, not of fiction; He himself disagrees with your curious & speculative theory that asserts it is " failure" for Jesus to crucified!

For Christ, going to be killed at the hands of men 2,000+ years ago, is really part and parcel OF THE WILL OF GOD, and of God's PLAN itself.

Thats WHY Jesus harshly rebuked Peter his disciple, when he was so keen to obstruct Jesus from getting to Jesus' death at the hands of men in Jerusalem, this was the only time when Jesus labelled Peter 'Satan', THATS how severely wrong Peter had been.

"Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind THE THINGS OF GOD, but the things of men."

Do you also wish to be addressed as 'satan' by Christ? Jesus Christ was concerned with only ONE THING in His life and mission - TO CARRY OUT THE THINGS OF GOD -GOD'S PLANS WHILE he was on the earth.

And so, going to be killed by the hands of men, 2000 years ago, in Jerusalem, was part of God's plan for Jesus Christ. Its ludicrous and nonsensical to claim that it was a 'failure' for Jesus to have undergone that episode!

So,let us continue the dialog....Okay?

I replied your question, the least you can do is to give me your thoughtful response.

Dan.

danny boy advances forth with the dubious presumption that what is recorded in the Greek canonical Gospels is accurate and factual testimony of what the historical Jesus actually said and did...lol....If he wasn't such a coward and stopped diverting away from the challenge I asked him to respond here - http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...8&postcount=51 he'd realize that his dubious claims are bluntly false and exeaggerated....

[barnasha]

danny boy advances forth with the dubious presumption that what is recorded in the Greek canonical Gospels is accurate and factual testimony of what the historical Jesus actually said and did...lol....If he wasn't such a coward and stopped diverting away from the challenge I asked him to respond here - http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...8&postcount=51 he'd realize that his dubious claims are bluntly false and exeaggerated....

As an informal representative of the traditions of the prophet Muhammad, I encourage you to treat Dan more nobly than he treats you, no matter if you are correct.

Even when the prophet dealt with enemies and those who rejected the truth, he did so in a noble way.

(there are probably much better stories or 'ahaadeeth' to demonstrate this, but here are a few)

Narrated Abu Umamah: Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: “I guarantee a home in paradise for a person who gives up arguments and disputes even if he is on the truth. And (I also guarantee) a home in the middle of Paradise for a person who gives up lying (false statements) even when joking. And (I also guarantee) a home in the highest part of Paradise for a person who has a high standard of character.” (Abu Dawud & At-Tirmidhi)

'Amr ibnul 'Aas Radiyallahu 'Anhu reports: "(Rasulullah
Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam gave attention, spoke and showed love to
the worst person of a nation. So that, the person may feel he is
being given special attention). He used to give attention, and spoke
to me also in a manner, that I began to feel that I was the best
among the community. (Therefore one day) I asked: 'O Messenger of
Allah, am I better or is Abubakr better?' He replied: 'Abubakr'. I
then asked: 'Am I better, or 'Umar?' He replied. "Umar'. I
asked: 'Am I better or 'Uthmaan?' He replied: 'Uthmaan'.When I asked
him these questions, Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam told me
the truth. (He did not tell me I was better to keep me happy.
Afterwards I felt ashamed of myself on this deed). I felt I should
not have asked such a question".


In the beginning the muslims were just a few. But they dealt with everyone with kindness and charity. So their numbers grew. If not, how would anyone have joined them? Christians and others should reflect on this, too.

[Dan Zebiri]

Well, well....Hahaha LOLLL : a dubious hypothesis thats also truly comical and amusing, especially coming from a muslim polemicist and propogandist.

WHAT Other sources in your islamised mind would you promote that is a better source for the life of Christ Jesus then?

Dan

[Dan Zebiri]

So, there you go, barney, "..reject the 'truth;" did you say?

You are implying "Truth of islam" here of course - So its clear that I am not wrong to think you are indeed a muslim and Islamic pronoter on this Theologyweb segment.

Of course, I see no convincing or compelling reasons to buy into the so-called 'truth of islam' by any measure.

But it will be good if you can demonstrate some good dialog sense and discuss the issues with me as I had requested.

Dan.

[barnasha]

So, there you go, barney, "..reject the 'truth;" did you say?

You are implying "Truth of islam" here of course - So its clear that I am not wrong to think you are indeed a

I do not know what you're referring to, and I reject your assumptions about what I imply.

Could you clarify please?

[mudcake]

Well, well....Hahaha LOLLL : a dubious hypothesis thats also truly comical and amusing, especially coming from a muslim polemicist and propogandist.

WHAT Other sources in your islamised mind would you promote that is a better source for the life of Christ Jesus then?

Dan

Thats easy danny grasshopper whatever source of information that exists prior to the Quranic revelation that conforms to the true Islamic teaching about Jesus in the Quran and hadith literature.

For example, the hadith of Jesus extracted from and forms part of the canonical Gospel of Matthew would be one example of the true teachings of Jesus that still exists within the dubious and unreliable NT record as a source for the true person and identity of Jesus and his teachings. The following hadith is a saying of Jesus that refutes the Trinitarian myth that erroneously postulates God Almighty is comprised of three distinct persons that collectively form one personal divine being. Jesus and the scribe both declare that HE God Almighty (one 'person') is the one God and there is no one else that is the one God but HIM alone. Unless of course danny can biblical substantiate using biblical exegesis to illustrate that when the scribe truthfully proclaimed,.... "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE is one, and there is no other but HE; 33 and to love Him with all the heart..."

"HE" and "HIM" WHO is identified as the 'one GOD' is a triune being that is comprised of three distinct 'persons' that form one personal being?...lol.......

"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" 29 Jesus answered, "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is ONE; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." 32 And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE is one, and there is no other but HE; 33 and to love Him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbour as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And after that no one dared to ask him any question. (Mark 12:28-34


I can give you many more examples of earlier sources of information about Jesus that conform to the truth proclaimed by Jesus in the Quranic revelations if you like danny..lol....

[Dan Zebiri]

Barnasha,

Its NOT about if the people failed to Kill Jesus Christ or not!

The point is wholly about Jesus Christ anticipating his execution and death in the Matthew chapter 16 verses 21-23! That occurred 2,000 years ago, and not at some 'future summit'!

In that passage, it is crystal clear that Jesus saw his arrest and subsequent death by his enemies - whoever they are (chauvinist Jewish religious leaders, Roman colonial powers,etc), upon His entry into Jerusalem was IN LINE AND IN ACCORDANCE TOTALLY WITH GOD'S WILL for Him.

Peter, Jesus own leading disciple, was reprimanded severely by Jesus Himself, when he tried to block and obstruct Jesus's arrest and subesquent execution in the city of Jerusalem THEN.

So, your point IS IRRELEVANT, barney, whether its the people or whoever else had killed Him.

My point and that of the Gospel records is that GOD HIMSELF WILLED IT, THAT JESUS CHRIST SHOULD DIE AN EXECUTED DEATH at Jesus's final entry into Jerusalem that day, 2,000+plus years ago.

This focus on Jesus Christ's death, with its vicarious and redeeming qualities, I submit, is reinforced by His various messages' own thrusts and reminders. That is proven by such statements as in :

Matthew 20:28 - 'The Son of Man - Jesus Himself, came to SACRIFICE (Give) HIS LIFE, as a RANSOM FOR MANY (Souls).."

Jesus explicitly predicted His own impending death ON AT LEAST THREE DIFFERENT OCCASIONS to His followers.

Christ did not stay dead, YES, BECAUSE according to the most ancient and authentic records HE RESURRECTED from death!. We can see that you agree with the fact that Jesus did 'not stay dead' (in your own words)

But for the RESURRECTION to have happened, obviously Jesus Christ MUST HAVE BEEN CRUCIFIED FIRST!

And that was my point, Jesus Christ's death by crucifixion execution was completely IN LINE AND IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE WILL OF GOD - & not against it in any way or measure.

Remember that Jesus also had already declared :

17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.

18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.

John 10 : 17 -18

Christ LAID DOWN HIS LIFE- willingly and voluntarliy, not reluctantly, even though He actually submitted to God's will ultimately.

He ALSO had the POWER AND AUTHORITY to resurrect HIMSELF BACK to Life.

Muhamad never had any such thing. His demise is evidenced by his tomb in Saudi, and its ancient rotted contents.

Wasalaam, Dan.

Dan, your responses always break out into a diatribe to such an extent that I do not have the time or energy to read them all.

I will be glad to address your arguments, could you do me a favor and sum them up or cite them from your previous posts?

You said:


My point was that JESUS was not the one who failed, it was the people who tried to have him killed. THOSE PEOPLE failed. Because in the end, did Jesus stay dead? .................

[Dan Zebiri]

Your quran is a jumbled, hodge-podge myths based on fabrications and falsifications of the lives of God's true Prophets.

Furthermore, it is an excellent manual AND inspiration for terrorists to terrorise and kill common, innocent non-muslims, world-wide.

Beileve in such false and tyrannical doctrines as found therein?
Better for you to go and preach to an ape and / or a pig.

[mudcake]

Dan Zebiri - Your quran is a jumbled, hodge-podge myths based on fabrications and falsifications of the lives of God's true Prophets.

...lol....Thats not true danny..... these are false assertions and lies fed to you by your deity you worship - sam shamoun.. sammy feeds you fabrications and falsifications of the lives of God's true Prophets..lol.....

Furthermore, it is an excellent manual AND inspiration for terrorists to terrorise and kill common, innocent non-muslims, world-wide.

..lol....Nah your confused dan..sammy is feeding you more fabrications and falsifications you mean the Bible , not the Quran mate....See why:

According to Trinitarian christology, loving Jesus as 'God incarnate' that pre-existed as part of a triune godhead throughout biblical history ordered/commanded and instructed the divine orders to be adhered to that relates to how we should Kill and execute close family members, and innocent women and children , etc underscores your feeble and desperate 'argument' and exposes your double standards.. Accept it danny boy.. Jesus was a ruthless killer and murderer of women and children before he decided to chill out and become a peace loving man on earth..... Jesus as the preincarnnate god of Israel was a blood thirty killer..

According to Trinitarian christology, Jesus as 'God incarnate' that pre-existed as part of a triune godhead throughout biblical history ordered the following divine command in Deuteronomy to be adhered to that relates to how we should Kill and persecute apostates of the religion of the Lord God of Israel and execute close family members and relatives that invite to other religions and don't accept the way of god YHWH:

7 If your brother, your own mother's son, or your son or daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your closest friend entices you in secret, saying, "Come let us worship other gods" - whom neither you nor your fathers have experienced 8 from among the gods of the peoples around you, either near to you or distant, anywhere from one end of the earth to the other: 9 do not assent or give heed to him. Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him; 10 but take his life. Let your hand be the first against him to put him to death, and the hand of the rest of the people thereafter. 11 Stone him to death, for he sought to make you stray from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 12 Thus all Israel will hear and be afraid, and such evil things will not be done again in your midst.
13 If you hear it said, of one of the towns that the Lord your God is giving you to dwell in, 14 that some scoundrels from among you have gone and subverted the inhabitants of their town, saying, "Come let us worship other gods" whom you have not experienced 15 you shall investigate and inquire and interrogate thoroughly. If it is true, the fact is established that abhorrent thing was perpetrated in your midst 16 put the inhabitants of that town to the sword and put its cattle to the sword. Doom it and all that is in it to destruction: 17 gather all its spoil into the open square, and burn the town and all its spoil as a holocaust to the Lord your God. And it shall remain an everlasting ruin, never to be rebuilt. 18 Let nothing that has been doomed stick to your hand, in order that the Lord may turn from His blazing anger and show you compassion, and in His compassion increase you as He promised your fathers on oath." Deuteronomy 20:16-18

According to your erroneous Christological interpretation of Jesus as the pre-incarnate godmember of the triune god of Israel, he INSTRUCTED and COMMANDED his followers to kill and mutilate 1000's of living human souls. The preincarnate god Jesus INSTRUCTED and COMMANDED to MURDER innocent women and children throught the OT history..... Lol......

11 Suppose they accept your offer and open their gates. Then force all of the people in the city to be your slaves. They will have to work for you. 12 But suppose they refuse your offer of peace and prepare for battle. Then surround that city. Get ready to attack it. 13 The Lord your God will hand it over to you. When he does, kill all of the men with your swords. 14 But you can take the women and children for yourselves. You can also take the livestock and everything else in the city. What you have captured from your enemies you can use for yourselves. The Lord your God has given it to you. 15 That's how you must treat all of the cities that are far away from you. Those cities don't belong to the nations that are nearby. 16 But what about the cities the Lord your God is giving you as your own? Kill everything in those cities that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them. Wipe out the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. That's what the Lord your God commanded you to do. 18 If you don't destroy them, they'll teach you to follow all of the things the Lord hates. He hates the way they worship their gods. If you do those things, you will sin against the Lord your God. 19 Suppose you surround a city and get ready to attack it. And suppose you fight against it for a long time in order to capture it. Then don't chop its trees down and destroy them. You can eat their fruit. So don't cut them down. The trees of the field aren't people. So why should you attack them? 20 But you can cut down trees that you know aren't fruit trees. You can build war machines out of their wood. You can use them until you capture the city you are fighting against. Deuteronomy 20:11-20

And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon. So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land. Numbers 21:34-35

And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: Deuteronomy 2:33-34

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. Numbers 31:7-18

"Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city." Zechariah 14:1-2


and much much more zillion examples of cruelty that Jesus the pre incarnate God of Israel commanded in the excellent (bible) manual AND inspiration for terrorists to terrorise and kill common, innocent people, world-wide bible dan..lol....

Beileve in such false and tyrannical doctrines as found therein?

...lol... No false and tyrannical doctrines found in the Quran dan... your'e getting confused with your own bible mate....lol.....

Better for you to go and preach to an ape and / or a pig.

I am...in this post....lol.....

[barnasha]

Barnasha,

Its NOT about if the people failed to Kill Jesus Christ or not!

yes, it was.
pay attention to what was said.

[Dan Zebiri]

WHAT was? The point of the SCRIPTURES that I presented here relating to the final days of Jesus Christ on Earth?

Or was it 'your point' about that? If the latter, then you stand corrected by what the earliest records say!

Jesus Christ went willingly and submissively to His execution and this was NEVER a defeat in ANY sense whatsoever.

To Christ, it was totally in LINE AND ACCORDANCE WITH THE WILL OF GOD, that He sacrificed and gave up His life by this execution.

Jesus Christ, IN HS OWN WORDS, already said that 'He was totally able to LAY DOWN (GIVE UP/SACRIFICE) His life in death, for He was equally able to TAKE IT BACK AGAIN (-to raise Himself back up to life).

THAT IS the context of the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ. Backed up by the relevant earliest Texts that record Jesus's own explanation of the matter.

Your views of this issue is not based on the earliest and best attested texts, thus it has a dubious and questionable context, based on your speculative and revisionist ideas of Jesus Christ!

So, yes, Barney, you do stand corrected on this issue of Jesus Death and His Resurrection - for like YOU admitted too, Christ did not stay dead!

He CERTAINLY DIED, but He did not stay dead because He raised Himself from death, LIKE JESUS HIMSELF SAID He would do!

Dan.