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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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The Eternal Submission of the Son to the Father

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  • The Eternal Submission of the Son to the Father

    Has Jesus been in submission to God the Father for all eternity or did He only submit Himself to the Father during the Incarnation? Some people argue that if Jesus was in submission to the Father for all eternity, then He has an inferior nature. Others argue that just because Jesus was in submission to the Father for all eternity does not mean that He has an inferior nature.

  • #2
    Paul seems to think that the subjection will be eternal in 1 Cor 15,28. We can speak of this in human terms in a variety of ways, but I don't think we can really describe the inner workings of the Trinity. Metaphor, analogy, poetry. One might think of a dance or figure skating, poetry in motion. While one partner leads, the other partner is not inferior, and may even be presented as the central character and focal point of the performance. The beauty and grace of the dancers complement each other.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    • #3
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      Paul seems to think that the subjection will be eternal in 1 Cor 15,28. We can speak of this in human terms in a variety of ways, but I don't think we can really describe the inner workings of the Trinity. Metaphor, analogy, poetry. One might think of a dance or figure skating, poetry in motion. While one partner leads, the other partner is not inferior, and may even be presented as the central character and focal point of the performance. The beauty and grace of the dancers complement each other.
      That's so beautiful it brought a tear to my glass eye.


      (seriously, I like that)
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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      • #4
        Jesus, as the Son, is the same nature as the Father. He can't be "inferior".

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Jesus, as the Son, is the same nature as the Father. He can't be "inferior".
          That's where the whole "ontological and functional subordination" arguments come in.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
            That's where the whole "ontological and functional subordination" arguments come in.
            Jesus and the Father have the same nature. However, they have different roles. Jesus has been submitting to the Father for all eternity, but this does not make Him less than God. This does not diminish His deity. However, there are people who would disagree with this. They would say that if Jesus has been submitting to the Father for all eternity, then Jesus must have an inferior nature than the Father.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Jesus, as the Son, is the same nature as the Father. He can't be "inferior".
              That's right. They have the same nature, same divine attributes. One is not inferior to the other. Submitting to someone for all eternity does not make one inferior.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Paul seems to think that the subjection will be eternal in 1 Cor 15,28. We can speak of this in human terms in a variety of ways, but I don't think we can really describe the inner workings of the Trinity. Metaphor, analogy, poetry. One might think of a dance or figure skating, poetry in motion. While one partner leads, the other partner is not inferior, and may even be presented as the central character and focal point of the performance. The beauty and grace of the dancers complement each other.
                1 Cor. 15:28 certainly sounds like the subjection of Jesus to the Father will be eternal. However, this does not make Him less divine.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jaxb View Post
                  That's right. They have the same nature, same divine attributes. One is not inferior to the other. Submitting to someone for all eternity does not make one inferior.
                  you just answered your own thread.

                  fini.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jaxb View Post
                    1 Cor. 15:28 certainly sounds like the subjection of Jesus to the Father will be eternal. However, this does not make Him less divine.
                    Correct. That's why I was saying that just because one dancer is leading, this does not mean that the other dancer is inferior.
                    Last edited by robrecht; 09-08-2016, 03:57 PM.
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                    • #11
                      "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

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                      • #12
                        I think the Bible makes it fairly clear that he was in submission, in some way, during creation of the world.

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                        • #13
                          The very Father Son relatiooship for eternity. Timeless - and time past with no beginning.

                          God the Father the true God. The Word both with God and was God being the true Light.

                          [Genesis 1:1; Psalm 90:2; John 17:3; John 1:1-4, 9-10; Hebrews 1:3.]
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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