Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic

[JonathanL]

How does the body die if the spirit thereof continues to live? According to Christians, isn't it the spirit that gives life to the body?

If the spirit separates from the body it can no longer give life to the body.

[JonathanL]

Let me help you please.

Ezk. 18:4 and 20 say "The one that sins shall die", so if Jesus the man died, no one is saved because "it is only the one that sins shall die" (not the sinless).

Ezekiel 18 is irrelevant to the issue. Ezekiel 18:4 and 20 is simply saying that in the normal course of action people die because of their own sins. It's not saying that there are never any exceptions to this, because clearly Jesus died to atone for the sins of humanity. In Ezekiel 18 God is telling the people of Israel that they're being punished for their own sins, and not the sins of their fathers. It doesn't say anything about someone willingly taking on the punishment for someone else's sin.

Man according to the Bible in Hebrews 9:27 dies. Hebrews 9:27 says "it is appointed for man to die once" but God CANNOT die according to 1 Timothy 6:16 "God alone possesses immortality"

Already answered in post #131.

[Same Hakeem]

Ezekiel 18 is irrelevant to the issue. Ezekiel 18:4 and 20 is simply saying that in the normal course of action people die because of their own sins. It's not saying that there are never any exceptions to this, because clearly Jesus died to atone for the sins of humanity. In Ezekiel 18 God is telling the people of Israel that they're being punished for their own sins, and not the sins of their fathers. It doesn't say anything about someone willingly taking on the punishment for someone else's sin.




Already answered in post #131.

Claiming "Ezekiel 18 is irrelevant to the issue. Ezekiel 18:4 and 20 is simply saying that in the normal course of action people die because of their own sins. It's not saying that there are never any exceptions to this, because clearly Jesus died to atone for the sins of humanity" is disapproved by Jesus himself in Matthew 16:27 says "For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done."

It is important to maintain the law because James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

[JimL]

If the spirit separates from the body it can no longer give life to the body.

So humans are like Jesus/god in that respect, in that only the body dies? How would you define this spirit when separate from the body? Is it a thinking thing in itself, can it see, hear and feel without a physical body?

[siam]

1) There is no distinction between Jesus the God and Jesus the human, it's not like they're two different persons. Or rather, there is no Jesus the human and Jesus the God, there is one Jesus, who is both God and human. The person Jesus, who is God in the flesh, died on the cross, but He died a physical, human death. Because Jesus is God it's proper to say that God (the Son) died on the cross, as long as it's not misunderstood to mean that Jesus' divine nature ceased to function, or existing or something similar. What it means is that Jesus' spirit separated from His physical body.

2) And it does matter that it was Jesus specifically that died, because He's the only sinless God-man that has ever lived. A sinful human being cannot die for the sins of humanity. God the Son had to become human because He had to become like us to bear our sins, He had to be sinless because an imperfect sacrifice can not cover for sin, and 3) He had to be God because a single human, even if sinless, wouldn't be enough to cover for the sins of humanity. A sinless God-man however, is another story.

...to rephrase...
1) a) Jesus is Both God and Human. b) Jesus as God and Human is one not two. c) Therefore, "God dies" but only the human part of God "dies" and the God part of God does not die (half of God dies?) So, God dies but does not die/is not dead...?...
Is Jesus dead, alive, or half-dead?

2) a) The God Jesus and Human Jesus are one = "God-man" b) God is sinless, man is sinful. Sinful man cannot die for the sins of humanity. c) Sinless God has to become sinful man in order "bear our sins" ...likely because God by himself cannot be "sinful" right?...
.....but---in 2b you said sacrifice by sinful man is useless. In 1c you say God-man "dies"but the human(sinful) part only---not the divine(sinless). So if Divine/sinless "God-man" does not die---and the sacrifice is solely carried out by the human/sinful "God-man"---then how can sin of humanity be redeemed?...unless, human sacrifice can redeem it?....

3) sinless God has to "die" because sacrifice of sinful man is not enough.
but God cannot die
so there is a God-man that can be dead and not dead.
But this still does not change the fact that God cannot die---man can die and therefore be a sacrifice--so even after an incarnation where God becomes God-man---only man dies and is sacrificed.
however---this means that the sins of humanity are not redeemed as only death of God can redeem them not death of human sacrifice alone.

AAAARGH!!!! I've got a migraine!!!!!! seems to me--Christianity has put itself between a rock and a hard place and there is no way out.....

[JonathanL]

...to rephrase...
1) a) Jesus is Both God and Human. b) Jesus as God and Human is one not two. c) Therefore, "God dies" but only the human part of God "dies" and the God part of God does not die (half of God dies?) So, God dies but does not die/is not dead...?...
Is Jesus dead, alive, or half-dead?

a) Correct.

b) Correct, if by one you mean one person, and not two persons.

c) More accurately, God dies a human death. It's not that only half of God dies, but rather that there is a physical death that Jesus underwent as a person. His entire person, human and divine endured separation from His body. His divine part not dying refers to the fact that His divine nature did not cease existing, or stop functioning, as a result of this separation. So the God-man Jesus did die a physical death.

2) a) The God Jesus and Human Jesus are one = "God-man" b) God is sinless, man is sinful. Sinful man cannot die for the sins of humanity. c) Sinless God has to become sinful man in order "bear our sins" ...likely because God by himself cannot be "sinful" right?...
.....but---in 2b you said sacrifice by sinful man is useless. In 1c you say God-man "dies"but the human(sinful) part only---not the divine(sinless). So if Divine/sinless "God-man" does not die---and the sacrifice is solely carried out by the human/sinful "God-man"---then how can sin of humanity be redeemed?...unless, human sacrifice can redeem it?....

a) Correct.

b) Every man is sinful (with one notable exception), but it's not an essential part of being human, so I would say, sort of? At least you got the sinful man not being able to die for the sins of humanity right.

c) Incorrect. Sinless God became a sinless man to bear our sins. As I noted above, sinfulness is not an essential part of being human. It's more like a defect, or a corruption that we are all born with, with the exception of Jesus, Who was miraculously conceived and did not fall under the curse of sin.

And again, the entire God-man died a physical death on the cross. You cannot separate the two natures of Christ. Jesus died physically, both as a man and as God.

His divine part not dying refers to the fact that His divine nature did not cease existing, or stop functioning, as a result of this separation.

3) sinless God has to "die" because sacrifice of sinful man is not enough.
but God cannot die
so there is a God-man that can be dead and not dead.
But this still does not change the fact that God cannot die---man can die and therefore be a sacrifice--so even after an incarnation where God becomes God-man---only man dies and is sacrificed.
however---this means that the sins of humanity are not redeemed as only death of God can redeem them not death of human sacrifice alone.

No.


God has to take on flesh and die because the sacrifice of sinful man is not enough.

So the Son took on human nature and lived a sinless life as an example for us to follow, and died physically on the cross, human and divine nature alike, to atone for our sins. So Jesus offered himself up completely, enduring the death and shame of the cross to atone for our sins.

Jesus did not only die as a man. The entire God-man died, but physically, not spiritually.

AAAARGH!!!! I've got a migraine!!!!!! seems to me--Christianity has put itself between a rock and a hard place and there is no way out.....

Well, maybe if you didn't draw such far-fetched and groundless conclusions from what I wrote you might not be so confused.

[JonathanL]

Claiming "There is no distinction between Jesus the God and Jesus the human" is baseless because Jesus disapproved trinity over and over in the Bible as Jesus, for instance, said "My Father is greater than all" in John 10:29. All means all without any exception allowed here.

John 10:29 is not a disapproval of the Trinity, because even though the Son is equal to the Father He willingly submitted himself to the Fathers will while on earth as a human. According to Philippians 2:5-11 Jesus existed in the form of God before the incarnation and was equal in form to the Father, but took on flesh and submitted Himself to the will of the Father even to the point of dying on the cross. But after the resurrection He was again exalted and is now sitting on the throne of His Father and is Lord over all creation. The Son and the Father are equal and identical in essence, but the Son is subject to the Father in his role, which is why Jesus says that His Father is greater than all.

Claiming "Because Jesus is God it's proper to say that God (the Son) died on the cross" is also contradiction to 1 Timothy 6:16 that says "God ALONE possesses immortality"; therefore, if Jesus died, Jesus CANNOT BE God biblically and logically.

Of course He can. Jesus could die on the cross because He had both a human and divine nature.

Saying "What it means is that Jesus' spirit separated from His physical body" proves Jesus the man died because "the body without the spirit is dead" in James 2:27 and hence Jesus was neither God or God man because God cannot die.

There are two types of death, physical and spiritual. If God takes on human nature He can die a physical death, but not a spiritual death. God by himself, without a human nature, can die neither physically, nor spiritually.

[JonathanL]

Claiming "Ezekiel 18 is irrelevant to the issue. Ezekiel 18:4 and 20 is simply saying that in the normal course of action people die because of their own sins. It's not saying that there are never any exceptions to this, because clearly Jesus died to atone for the sins of humanity" is disapproved by Jesus himself in Matthew 16:27 says "For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done."

Matthew 16:27 is not a proof-text that can be used to infer that Jesus couldn't die for the sins of humanity. You're reading far more out of the text than is warranted. "according to what he has done" also includes receiving the forgiveness of sins through faith, which overshadows every sinful action a man could ever commit.

It is important to maintain the law because James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

Absolutely right, which is why Jesus atoning sacrifice on the cross is necessary, because no one is able to keep himself from breaking the law of God. And there is no one who simply stumbles at a single point of the Law, we all keep sinning continually every day.

[Same Hakeem]

John 10:29 is not a disapproval of the Trinity, because even though the Son is equal to the Father He willingly submitted himself to the Fathers will while on earth as a human. According to Philippians 2:5-11 Jesus existed in the form of God before the incarnation and was equal in form to the Father, but took on flesh and submitted Himself to the will of the Father even to the point of dying on the cross. But after the resurrection He was again exalted and is now sitting on the throne of His Father and is Lord over all creation. The Son and the Father are equal and identical in essence, but the Son is subject to the Father in his role, which is why Jesus says that His Father is greater than all.



Of course He can. Jesus could die on the cross because He had both a human and divine nature.




There are two types of death, physical and spiritual. If God takes on human nature He can die a physical death, but not a spiritual death. God by himself, without a human nature, can die neither physically, nor spiritually.

1. John 10:29 is a disapproval of Trinity because John 10:29 says "My Father is greater than all" excluding therefore the Holy Spirit; all means all; no exception is allowed here.

2. Saying "If God takes on human nature He can die a physical death, but not a spiritual death" is wrong because "God CANNOT DIE" according to 1 Timothy 6:16 "God ALONE possess immortality"; therefore, God cannot die.

[Same Hakeem]

a) Correct.

b) Correct, if by one you mean one person, and not two persons.

c) More accurately, God dies a human death. It's not that only half of God dies, but rather that there is a physical death that Jesus underwent as a person. His entire person, human and divine endured separation from His body. His divine part not dying refers to the fact that His divine nature did not cease existing, or stop functioning, as a result of this separation. So the God-man Jesus did die a physical death.





a) Correct.

b) Every man is sinful (with one notable exception), but it's not an essential part of being human, so I would say, sort of? At least you got the sinful man not being able to die for the sins of humanity right.

c) Incorrect. Sinless God became a sinless man to bear our sins. As I noted above, sinfulness is not an essential part of being human. It's more like a defect, or a corruption that we are all born with, with the exception of Jesus, Who was miraculously conceived and did not fall under the curse of sin.

And again, the entire God-man died a physical death on the cross. You cannot separate the two natures of Christ. Jesus died physically, both as a man and as God.

His divine part not dying refers to the fact that His divine nature did not cease existing, or stop functioning, as a result of this separation.





No.


God has to take on flesh and die because the sacrifice of sinful man is not enough.

So the Son took on human nature and lived a sinless life as an example for us to follow, and died physically on the cross, human and divine nature alike, to atone for our sins. So Jesus offered himself up completely, enduring the death and shame of the cross to atone for our sins.

Jesus did not only die as a man. The entire God-man died, but physically, not spiritually.




Well, maybe if you didn't draw such far-fetched and groundless conclusions from what I wrote you might not be so confused.

Saying "God dies" contradicts "God ALONE possesses IMMORTALITY" in 1 Timothy 6:16

[JonathanL]

1. John 10:29 is a disapproval of Trinity because John 10:29 says "My Father is greater than all" excluding therefore the Holy Spirit; all means all; no exception is allowed here.

John 10:29 is not a disapproval of the Trinity because Jesus goes on to say in verse 30, "The Father and I are one” claiming equality with the Father. The Father being greater than all therefore has clear exceptions, as verse 30 proves. If the statement "My Father is greater than all" was meant to be absolute, with no exceptions what so ever allowed, then Jesus wouldn't have stated that He and the Father are one immediately afterwards.

2. Saying "If God takes on human nature He can die a physical death, but not a spiritual death" is wrong because "God CANNOT DIE" according to 1 Timothy 6:16 "God ALONE possess immortality"; therefore, God cannot die.

1 Timothy 6:16 is completely irrelevant to the question of whether God the Son could die physically on the cross. God alone possessing immortality is speaking of the Father having life in Himself. The Son also has life in Himself, but on accord of being born of the Father in eternity:

Scripture Verse: John 5:26 ESV

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

© Copyright Original Source

Furthermore, 1 Tim 6:16 is speaking about being eternal and indestructible. Even if the Son died physically on the cross He did not die in the way 1 Tim 6:16 means, which would be a complete annihilation of the spirit. 1 Tim 6:16 has nothing to do with physical death, but is speaking of ceasing to exist altogether, which it is impossible for God to do.

[JonathanL]

Saying "God dies" contradicts "God ALONE possesses IMMORTALITY" in 1 Timothy 6:16

It does not, because 1 Tim 6:16 has nothing to do with physical death.

[JimL]

It does not, because 1 Tim 6:16 has nothing to do with physical death.

So, Jesus never really died on the cross, was never entombed and resurrected?

[Watermelon]

I don’t think the concept of the trinity is something that we could ever hope to adequately understand. I think it’s because we can only try to understand it within the confines of our own existence. It may be that the trinity needs to be conceptualized in a setting that far exceeds our own space time dimension to start making any sort of sense.

[JonathanL]

So, Jesus never really died on the cross, was never entombed and resurrected?

???

How on earth did you come to that conclusion???

There's absolutely no way to logically come to that conclusion based on what I've written in this thread so far.