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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Only one can be telling the truth. .....

    While it may have started out as a way for Muslims to avoid persecution by lying (compare and contrast that to early Christian martyrs) .....
    Christian martyrs---Is this about "turning the other cheek"? What is the Christian perspective on Martyr, where does the doctrine emerge from? How is it understood today?...or has it been discarded?


    Islamic ethico-moral paradigm, does not have the doctrine of "turn the other cheek" because the preservation of life is important and both a right and a duty.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Trucker View Post

      Slavery simply cannot be justified by any proper exegesis of the New Testament
      And yet it was justified and rationalized in the Christian US for centuries. It played a major, role in providing the economic foundations of the United States—especially in the South. And apartheid laws (i.e. the Jim Crow laws) were enacted in the late 19th and early 20th century to disenfranchise and remove any gains made by blacks during the Reconstruction period – they remained in force until 1965.

      The demonstrable fact is that people of faith can read the bible so that virtually any perspective on current moral values will find biblical justification.
      Last edited by Tassman; 07-01-2020, 11:49 PM.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Indeed, siam..Islam's "ethico paradigm" is based not just only on the 'preservation of life' polemic but preserving the lives of muslims AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS, especially the unbelieving non-muslims or who the koran pejoratively labels as 'kuffar' - ie.infidels who are "najasun" and unclean per Sura at-taubah 28.

        The koranic & islamic injunctions according to the orthodox islamic sunnah are commanded from the "word of Allah" here:

        “And FIGHT them until there is no more Fitnah - disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah and the religion or worship will ALL BE for Allah Alone in the WHOLE OF THE WORLD. But if they cease -worshipping others besides Allah, then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” (8:39 Hilali-Khan translation, also in all the following quotations)

        “FIGHT (Q-T-L, qatala) against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth i.e. Islam among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they PAY THE Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” (9:29)

        “It is He Who has sent His Messenger - Muhammad with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it SUPERIOR over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate it.” (9:33)

        “Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though YOU DISLIKE IT, and it may be that you dislike a THING WHICH IS GOOD FOR YOU and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.” (2:216)

        “So, when you meet (in the Jihad of Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve, SMITE AT THEIR NECKS till when you have KILLED and WOUNDED MANY of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden.

        Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till THEY EMBRACE ISLAM in the or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them without you. But He lets you fight, in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost,” (47:4)

        NONE OF THESE verses & ayats are Mansuh or abrogated. Thus they are applicable until today.

        Muhamed was the model of jihad participating in a number of battles and planning others, in the pursuit of conquering the whole world, without limits, 'gifted' to him by Allah.

        All the 4 succeeding caliphs, army generals like Tariq bin Ziyad, Khalid Abdul Walid and other soldiers who conquered Spain, Syria, Damascus, Egypt, Persia and Byzantine. Later, India was colonized and other parts of north Africa.

        They had no confusions at all about what their scope of conquest in the World was - ALL OF IT. All the military and subversive forces of islam from the very beginning until the 21st century knew the whole world must be conquered.




        Originally posted by siam View Post
        Christian martyrs---Is this about "turning the other cheek"? What is the Christian perspective on Martyr, where does the doctrine emerge from? How is it understood today?...or has it been discarded?


        Islamic ethico-moral paradigm, does not have the doctrine of "turn the other cheek" because the preservation of life is important and both a right and a duty.

        Comment


        • Muslim orthopraxy spring from established Islamic sources and injunctions of orthodoxy – the Koran, sunnah and sharia, globally practiced and applied over the last 1400 years of Islamic history in Islamic states.

          Islamic theologians are the best interpreters and proponents of what their doctrines propound. They do not need your disingenuous conjectures and speculative re-interpretation of what “the whole world” means in the polity of islam.
          “Allah shall give you YET MORE LANDS (the land of Khaibar, the lands of the Persian and Roman empires) on WHICH YOU HAVE NOT SO FAR SET YOUR FOOT.
          S.Ahzab 27.

          No one in islam’s colonising history has ever argued what the ‘then known world’ versus the ‘future world’ was in Islamic theology or during any caliphal military stratagem of war - maybe you can invent one.

          Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the most influential theologian, strategist and dominant force influencing practically over all the movements in the orthodox muslim world, Islamic Brotherhood, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, ISIS etc represents this confidence supremely.

          He obviously knew what his World was by saying:
          “Islam entered Europe twice and left it…Perhaps the next conquest, Allah willing, will be by means of preaching and ideology.

          "The CONQUEST need not necessarily be by the sword..We will CONQUER THESE LANDS without armies. WE WANT AN ARMY OF PREACHERS AND TEACHERS WHO WILL PRESENT ISLAM IN ALL LANGUAGES AND IN ALL DIALECTS…”
          - Al-Jazeera, January 1999

          Yusuf Qaradawi uses military language interchangeably and consistently with preaching, islamic missionary enterprise – da’wah and warfare.

          Islamic conquest can be achieved equally by armed conflicts as well as missionary conversions.






          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          What do you not understand about the extent of exploration in the late sixth century?

          The known world was vast at that time but it was not the entire world that you and I know of today.

          Comment


          • You are right, Jesus Christ never authorized any follower of His to armed conflict, even at the end - just before his crucifixion he forbade Peter and others who wanted to fight the soldiers with swords. He said: "Put away your swords, for those who use the sword shall die by the sword." Matthew 26: 52. Then He healed the wound on the soldiers cut ear!

            Originally posted by Trucker View Post
            Great Post!!

            Edited to add: And it sure doesn't sound like anything Christians were authorized to do!!!

            Comment


            • Oh yes, you definitely are no Arabist and certainly no Islamicist. There are others here who have read and studied the Koran and sunnah/traditions and history of Islam plus the related Arabic far longer than you.

              Muhamed, islam’s founder had to flee Mecca for his life because he badly offended the sensibilities of the Meccans and Quraish whom he had earlier tried to desperately convert to his new cult and ideology but had failed miserably at.

              Rejected and thrown out from Mecca, he found refuge at Yathrib, later Medina, a short distance north from there-where some sympathizers sheltered him. He eventually gathered some friends there whom he converted to his religion and cause. And he quickly became a religious, political and military leader. They also became his brigands, robbers and highwaymen to conduct what the records call “razzias” or armed raiding parties to waylay and attack passing caravans plying commerce pathways. This was to enrich his and the muslims’ coffers, as they were without economic means and due to Muhamed’s desire for dominance over his enemies.

              At-Tabari and the Sirah of Muhammad tell of the horrific massacre and genocide of the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza – up to 900 men and innocent male juveniles were mercilessly and barbarically beheaded and decapitated by Muhammad’s Muslim killers, a wanton show of barbaric power to intimidate his enemies into fear and submission.

              Besides that, he also banished 2 other Jewish tribes, the banu Nadir and banu Qaynuqa and confiscated their properties, assets and lands, further enriching his booty and war chests. What were the crimes of these Jewish victims of Muhamed’s genocidal and hegemonistic madness? They lived in Madina for generations before this tyrannical religious & self-proclaimed “prophet” ever set foot there!

              Before you start screaming “sources?” Get yourself a copy of the hadith and the Sirah of Muhammad by ibn Ishaq and ibn Hisham, all orthodox Islamic sources documenting these.




              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              I would not attempt a discussion on these topics as I am not a Arabist and nor do I imagine are any of your interlocutors!

              However, as with all ancient texts, we have to consider them in their exact historical context and not attempt to interpret them from our own 21st century viewpoint.

              I am enjoying your contributions by the way.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                Oh yes, you definitely are no Arabist and certainly no Islamicist.
                Why are you repeating what I have written?

                Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                There are others here who have read and studied the Koran and sunnah/traditions and history of Islam plus the related Arabic far longer than you.
                As I have never studied the Koran in any great depth, what point are you making? Are you attempting to make an appeal to your own prestige? If so, I regret that I do not consider your commentary on this topic to have been overly "academic" in either tone or content.

                As for your outrage at Muslim barbarities towards the Jews you need to bear in mind that warfare was then, and remains now, a bloody business. Nor were there such as things as the ICC and Geneva Conventions in previous centuries.

                Christians massacring Jews and Muslims when they took Jerusalem in 1099 were no less barbaric. The Christian church and its adherents persecuted and massacred Jews "back home" as well for centuries. Christians even slaughtered their own when they took Constantinople in 1204.

                I am therefore not entirely sure what point you are attempting to make in your reply.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  While it may have started out as a way for Muslims to avoid persecution by lying (compare and contrast that to early Christian martyrs)
                  What Christian martyrs might these be?

                  From evidence it is apparent that many Christians did renege on their faith, and perform their required official religious duties, in order to save their lives.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Because it bears and is worth repeating.

                    Why don't you try assessing the contents of koranic doctrines of war espoused ny the verses given rather than hide behind your so called 'ignorance'?

                    And no, your presumption of my alleged 'prestige' is incorrect, as usual again.



                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    Why are you repeating what I have written?

                    As I have never studied the Koran in any great depth, what point are you making? Are you attempting to make an appeal to your own prestige? If so, I regret that I do not consider your commentary on this topic to have been overly "academic" in either tone or content.

                    As for your outrage at Muslim barbarities towards the Jews you need to bear in mind that warfare was then, and remains now, a bloody business. Nor were there such as things as the ICC and Geneva Conventions in previous centuries.

                    Christians massacring Jews and Muslims when they took Jerusalem in 1099 were no less barbaric. The Christian church and its adherents persecuted and massacred Jews "back home" as well for centuries. Christians even slaughtered their own when they took Constantinople in 1204.

                    I am therefore not entirely sure what point you are attempting to make in your reply.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      As I have never studied the Koran in any great depth,
                      That I can understand! The Qur'qn make absolutely no sense at all to someone just trying to become acquainted with what is is that Muslims believe. Or, perhaps more accurately, what Muslims are supposed to believe. To study the Qua'an seems like a complete waste of one's time to someone not at all familiar with what makes the Muslim tic who is knowledgeable and conversant in all the Islamic sacralized writings.. In short, Muhammad is the supreme example for all Muslims. What Muhammad said, what he did and how he did it, what refused to do, What he permitted and what he forbade ....... on and on on Right down to every detail of how to take care of one's body functions when in the toilet!!!! That is true Islam is a nutshell.

                      I'll tell you tha Osama bin Laden Knew his Islamic sacralized writings very well! Take it from there and see what you come up with! A mandate to wage war until all the world is subdued or converted to Islam!!!!
                      !

                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      Christians massacring Jews and Muslims when they took Jerusalem in 1099 were no less barbaric. The Christian church and its adherents persecuted and massacred Jews "back home" as well for centuries. Christians even slaughtered their own when they took Constantinople in 1204..
                      Would you care to show us the Scripture passages authorizing or permitting the atrocities you mention?? You know better .... or if you don't know better you should!! Now I have no reason the think you will tart anything say with anything other than to hand wave it off. So I'm again wasting my time. But I tried.[/COLOR]

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                        [COLOR="#0000FF"]That I can understand!
                        Trucker do not try and pretend you are an Arabist

                        I know you from past exchanges elsewhere.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          Trucker do not try and pretend you are an Arabist

                          I know you from past exchanges elsewhere.
                          You imply something I have never claimed. Purely diversionary garbage, Ma'am. About what I expected since I know you from exchanges elsewhere.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                            You imply something I have never claimed. Purely diversionary garbage, Ma'am. About what I expected since I know you from exchanges elsewhere.
                            You like to affect a knowledge of Islam.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              You like to affect a knowledge of Islam.
                              Actually I rely primarily on Islamists and history for my understanding of Islam, Ma'am. Their[the islamists] own words. For example: The Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam. The various Tafsirs. The Qur'an. The "Sirat Rasul Allah". The "Explanatory Memorandum" from the archives of the Muslim Brotherhood in America. And such. For example here's a snip from the Explanatory Memorandum:
                              Understanding the role of the Muslim Brother in North America

                              The process of settlement is a "Civilizational-Jihadist Process" with all the word means. The Ikhuan must
                              understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western
                              civilization from within and sabotaging it's miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers
                              so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions. .......
                              Just so there's no misunderstanding here, "Jihad means war to establish Islam and "God's religion" [Islam] means "God" [Allah] as revealed and defined by Muhammad!

                              Like I said, if you want a quick and easy way to understand Islam just find out what Muhammad said and did and how he did it!!!

                              One needn't be a "Arabist' {your choice of terms] to understand what Islam is and what it's up to!! It [Islam} is, in fact, doing very well ... which is most unfortunate for just about everyone that is not a Muslim!!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                                Actually I rely primarily on Islamists and history for my understanding of Islam, Ma'am.
                                Yet you have no understanding of the Arabic language or the Arabic culture.

                                Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                                One needn't be a "Arabist' {your choice of terms]
                                One needs an understanding of the Arabic language, the history of the Arabic peoples pre and post Islam, and some acquaintance with the origin and the subsequent development of the religion of Islam.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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