Originally posted by 37818
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo, are the three persons of the unified trinity able to separate one from the other. Does Jesus in the flesh exist on earth apart from the Father who himself, as Jesus said, is in heaven? If not, then Jesus would not only be the son of god, but would also be the father and the holy spirit. How can one be here, another be there, and the other somewhere else, particularly if, as is said, god is omnipresent.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo, are the three persons of the unified trinity able to separate one from the other. Does Jesus in the flesh exist on earth apart from the Father who himself, as Jesus said, is in heaven? If not, then Jesus would not only be the son of god, but would also be the father and the holy spirit. How can one be here, another be there, and the other somewhere else, particularly if, as is said, god is omnipresent.
When Jesus was on earth being baptised by John the Baptist, God's voice from heaven spoke and said, "This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased" and then the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove and rested on Jesus. In this picture you have all 3 members of the trinity interacting.
In the book of Genesis God said, "let us make man in our own image". They are 3 separate entities. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They are one in purpose. That is how you can have 3 in one.
Does this explanation help.
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Originally posted by Esther View PostI haven't read all the posts in this thread JimL so I'm not sure whether the following example has been given.
When Jesus was on earth being baptised by John the Baptist, God's voice from heaven spoke and said, "This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased" and then the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove and rested on Jesus. In this picture you have all 3 members of the trinity interacting.
In the book of Genesis God said, "let us make man in our own image". They are 3 separate entities. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They are one in purpose. That is how you can have 3 in one.
Does this explanation help.Last edited by JimL; 06-08-2020, 04:58 PM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNot really Esther, 3 distinct individuals would define polytheism, not monotheism. The Trinity defines the 3 persons as one god, a triune god, not 3 distict individuals which are separate one from the other. One can't be here, while the other 2 are elsewhere, they are supposed to be 3 persons in one god. Thank you for the response though.
The Trinity explanation are three distinct persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit who are the one God.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostJimL,
The Trinity explanation are three distinct persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit who are the one God.Last edited by JimL; 06-09-2020, 11:11 PM.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostJimL,
The Trinity explanation are three distinct persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit who are the one God.
Even then the Arian doctrine of Jesus being subordinate to the Father remained the accepted belief throughout much of the Roman empire, long after it was denounced as a heresy by the Council of Nicaea. It was retained by many Christians, particularly in the Germanic states, to the end of the 7th century.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYeah, I obviously know that if you'd been reading my post. But thanks for telling me anyway. Now if you could answer my post. If they are one god, how is it that 1 of the 3, the son, is down here on earth in the person of Jesus, while the other 2 are elswhere, presumedly in heaven. How do they split up like that if they are one god?
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostAnd yet it took it took 300 years (until the First Council of Nicaea) to arrive at this conclusion. And only after a long struggle among the early Christians in deciding whether Jesus was God -or merely a holy man raised to divine status as many believed, notably the Arian Christians.
Even then the Arian doctrine of Jesus being subordinate to the Father remained the accepted belief throughout much of the Roman empire, long after it was denounced as a heresy by the Council of Nicaea. It was retained by many Christians, particularly in the Germanic states, to the end of the 7th century.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe Arian doctrine was a result of wrong headed notion the Son had had to be generated from God the Father in some way to be the Son. Being uniquely the Son.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYeah, I obviously know that if you'd been reading my post. But thanks for telling me anyway. Now if you could answer my post. If they are one god, how is it that 1 of the 3, the son, is down here on earth in the person of Jesus, while the other 2 are elswhere, presumedly in heaven. How do they split up like that if they are one god?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostGod is omnipresent. John 3:13, The Son was then, and is now both son of man and Son of God. Being a distinct person from the Father.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostAnd yet it took it took 300 years (until the First Council of Nicaea) to arrive at this conclusion. And only after a long struggle among the early Christians in deciding whether Jesus was God -or merely a holy man raised to divine status as many believed, notably the Arian Christians.
Even then the Arian doctrine of Jesus being subordinate to the Father remained the accepted belief throughout much of the Roman empire, long after it was denounced as a heresy by the Council of Nicaea. It was retained by many Christians, particularly in the Germanic states, to the end of the 7th century.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostIt took hundreds of years, upon a sequence of heresies, to identify the best wording to represent the understanding of the Godhead revealed in scriptures. Without precise confessions, heretics could say the same words as orthodox people while having an improper view of the Godhead. There already were aspects of the multiple persons of the Godhead revealed in the Old Testament. This continued into the New Testament. The scriptures' testimony of this never changed. Only the precision of our description of this required improving.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostRight, and in order to make Jesus God, that had to come up with something, even if that something (three persons in one god) is completely illogical.
Are we to trust that somehow you understand God in his fullness? Was Old Testament prophecy improper to indicate the only logical explanation of God incarnate?
I'm not sure how you have some sort of standard to understand God who, by his essence, is not something we can fully comprehend. Have you even explored the philosophical framework by which this term "person" originated? If you don't know the philosophy behind the terminology, how can you determine whether this is possible or not?
Your conspiracy theory sounds untenable. Paul's writings are start within 20 years of the resurrection and he speaks of the Deity of Christ. The synoptic gospels came later, by most accounts. If there was a contrived effort to show Jesus as part of the Godhead, we would find these gospels quoting Jesus saying he is God. You would also have to make a theory why people even spoke of the Spirit -- since this would only (in such a framework) dilute the Deity of Christ.Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-10-2020, 06:08 PM.
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