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Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic

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  • That is not really true at all. In islam’s polemics you have the so-called “descent of the koran” & the internal theological jargon in Arabic is ‘nuzul al-koran’ or ‘the coming down of Allah’s word (kalam) to become a book or recitation’.

    Koran claims in sura 17/105 – 106 that it ‘was sent down from heaven’: ‘We sent down the Quran in truth, and in truth has it descended: and we sent you but to give glad tidings..it is a Quran which we have divided (into parts to him), in order that you might recite it to men at intervals.’

    Here, the koran only mimics and copies from the Gospel of John chapter 3:13 centuries earlier, in which the Son of God was also the Logos (Arabic Kalimatullah) that descended and came down from heaven:

    ‘No one has ever gone into heaven except THE ONE who came down from heaven–the Son of Man’ – John 3:13.

    Jesus also said in John 6:51: “I am the living bread that CAME DOWN from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

    And the Word (Logos) became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:14.

    The celebrated Muslim scholar, Syed Hossein Nasr agrees with this when he said: ‘The Word of God in Islam is the Quran; in Christianity it is Jesus Christ. The vehicle of the Divine Message in Christianity is the Virgin Mary; in Islam it is the soul of the Prophet.’

    ‘Only a miracle can save us. Our Savior is a book in Islam. The human vehicle of a divine Message must be pure and untainted..the pure and ‘untouched’ tablet of human receptivity.’

    Syed Hossein Nasr, Ideals and Realities of Islam, London: Allen & Unwin (1989), p.43-44.

    The incarnation of the Jesus Christ is not at all ridiculous to Syed Hossein Nasr. He calls Jesus Christ “the Divine Message” itself (not a ‘book’ called the Gospel or ‘Injil’). And the vehicle for its advent and arrival “is the Virgin Mary,” THAT is the description of the Incarnation itself from a learned Muslim and scholar like Syed Hossein.

    You condemn your own ‘nuzul-al-koran’ – the so-called ‘descent of the koran’- as equally ridiculous and nonsensical by thoughtlessly claiming the Incarnation as ‘ridiculous’, siam - and you are not even half a muslim scholar as Syed Hossein Nasr, who correctly acknowledges these as two parallel concepts.

    So, think before you blurt!



    Originally posted by siam View Post
    Took on human nature = demigod/God in human form.
    demigod-half human half God---Christian formula---fully God, fully human ---either way, the ratio is the same.

    No---from the Islamic perspective Both ideas---God "begetting" and God incarnating are equally ridiculous

    Comment


    • Amen and agreed, Chrawnus!

      Ignorant muslims like siam like to blurt & shoot off their mouths first before using their brains.

      More intelligent and thinking Muslim scholars are able to accept the fact of the incarnation as parallel concepts, or truths, in both Christianity and Islam - for both are concepts found the the Bible and the Koran.

      Muslims condemn their own orthodoxy when the try to deny the incarnation, in short.





      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
      This is an incredibly naive and simplistic way to look at it. In the first place, it's not even the same kind of divinity that is being compared. In the case of Christianity we have a theistic God with all that entails (omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, morally perfect etc...) taking on human nature while still retaining full divinity in the theistic meaning of the word, while in the case of pagan mythology we have a completely different sort of anthropomorphic gods siring offspring with the help of mortals and producing half-divine, half-human hybrids.



      That seems to me to be a flaw in the Islamic perspective, more than anything else.

      Comment


      • And not all historians or critical Biblical scholars share your view.

        According to historian and scholar of scriptures, Professor Robert Van Voorst, in “Jesus Outside the New Testament – An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence” concluded that:
        “Regarding the study of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, both in the general frame and in the details, the most reliable and trustworthy source is the New Testament. Our investigations concerning Jesus Christ outside the New Testament point us back to the life and account of Jesus Christ as found WITHIN the New Testament.”

        Robert Van Voorst, Jesus Outside the New Testament – An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence, 217 (Eerdmans, 2000)





        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        The Bible is not a reliable historical source because it does not meet the standard criteria of source reliability used by historians, namely 'historical critical methodology'.

        Comment


        • Now, THAT seems to be the problem for islam, when it says in the koran S.6/101:

          "HOW can God/Allah have a Son, when He does not have a wife (consort)?"


          The sonship - of Jesus Christ - a very important Persona in Islam, or whoever else, in islamic scriptures must necessarily result from a sexual and conjugal relationships. That is what the koran consistently assumes.

          For Christians, Jesus Christ was NEVER the Son of God defined or described according to koranic presumptions, ie. resulting from God having sex with Mary and producing their son.

          Sons and children of God were "born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of Man, but of GOD." John 1:13.

          The koran's prohibition to call Jesus as "Son of God" arises from a sexual taboo and aspersion in Islam and from the writer of the Koran's assumptions.








          Originally posted by siam View Post
          why not?
          the end result of either process is a God in human form?

          sex is bad/sin in Christianity?
          its not a sin in either Judaism or in Hellenistic cultures right?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
            And not all historians or critical Biblical scholars share your view.

            According to historian and scholar of scriptures, Professor Robert Van Voorst, in “Jesus Outside the New Testament – An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence” concluded that:
            “Regarding the study of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, both in the general frame and in the details, the most reliable and trustworthy source is the New Testament. Our investigations concerning Jesus Christ outside the New Testament point us back to the life and account of Jesus Christ as found WITHIN the New Testament.”

            Robert Van Voorst, Jesus Outside the New Testament – An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence, 217 (Eerdmans, 2000)
            One would expect nothing less from Robert Van Voorst - Professor of New Testament Studies at Western Theological Seminary, the Mission Statement of which reads: "All members of the Western Seminary community are united in trusting that God has spoken authoritatively in the inspired words of Holy Scripture. All confess, “Jesus is Lord,” and live as faithful disciples of this gospel..."

            This is hardly the basis of dispassionate 'historical critical methodology'.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Non-theistic 'biblical' scholars are equally guided by their bias and preconceived prejudices too.

              Or you didnt know..


              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              One would expect nothing less from Robert Van Voorst - Professor of New Testament Studies at Western Theological Seminary, the Mission Statement of which reads: "All members of the Western Seminary community are united in trusting that God has spoken authoritatively in the inspired words of Holy Scripture. All confess, “Jesus is Lord,” and live as faithful disciples of this gospel..."

              This is hardly the basis of dispassionate 'historical critical methodology'.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by siam View Post
                why not?
                the end result of either process is a God in human form?

                sex is bad/sin in Christianity?
                its not a sin in either Judaism or in Hellenistic cultures right?
                Mary was born of a virgin, siam; even the Qur'an confirms that.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                  Mary was born of a virgin, siam; even the Qur'an confirms that.
                  ???...typo?....???

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by siam View Post
                    ???...typo?....???
                    Typed before I had my first cup of coffee.

                    Should read Jesus was born of a virgin, siam; even the Qur'an confirms that.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                      Mary was born of a virgin, siam; even the Qur'an confirms that.
                      Jesus. Where do you think the Quran got it?
                      Last edited by JimL; 06-20-2020, 07:36 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Where do you think the Quran got it?
                        According to the teachings of Islam, it came directly from Allah.

                        “O Mary! Verily Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name shall be the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary held in honour in this world and in the hereafter and will be one of those near to Allah. He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous.” (3:45-46)

                        “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?!” (3:47)

                        “So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only ‘Be’ and it is.” (3:37)
                        Last edited by Christian3; 06-20-2020, 07:40 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                          According to the teachings of Islam, it came directly from Allah.
                          But you don't believe that, do you?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            But you don't believe that, do you?
                            Believe what?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                              Believe what?
                              Forget what you're talking about already? Believe that the idea that Jesus was born of a virgin came to Islam directly from Allah?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Forget what you're talking about already? Believe that the idea that Jesus was born of a virgin came to Islam directly from Allah?
                                What point are you even trying to make?

                                Comment

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