Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic

[siam]

Only one can be telling the truth. .....

While it may have started out as a way for Muslims to avoid persecution by lying (compare and contrast that to early Christian martyrs) .....

Christian martyrs---Is this about "turning the other cheek"? What is the Christian perspective on Martyr, where does the doctrine emerge from? How is it understood today?...or has it been discarded?


Islamic ethico-moral paradigm, does not have the doctrine of "turn the other cheek" because the preservation of life is important and both a right and a duty.

[Tassman]

Slavery simply cannot be justified by any proper exegesis of the New Testament

And yet it was

[Dan Zebiri]

Christian martyrs---Is this about "turning the other cheek"? What is the Christian perspective on Martyr, where does the doctrine emerge from? How is it understood today?...or has it been discarded?


Islamic ethico-moral paradigm, does not have the doctrine of "turn the other cheek" because the preservation of life is important and both a right and a duty.

[Dan Zebiri]

Islamic conquest can be achieved equally by armed conflicts as well as missionary conversions.

What do you not understand about the extent of exploration in the late sixth century?

The known world was vast at that time but it was not the entire world that you and I know of today.

[Dan Zebiri]

You are right, Jesus Christ never authorized any follower of His to armed conflict, even at the end - just before his crucifixion he forbade Peter and others who wanted to fight the soldiers with swords. He said: "Put away your swords, for those who use the sword shall die by the sword." Matthew 26: 52. Then He healed the wound on the soldiers cut ear!

Great Post!!

Edited to add: And it sure doesn't sound like anything Christians were authorized to do!!!

[Dan Zebiri]

razziasJewish tribe of Banu Qurayzaa wanton show of barbaric power to intimidate his enemies into fear and submission.

Besides that, he also banished 2 other Jewish tribes, the banu Nadir and banu Qaynuqa and confiscated their properties, assets and lands, further enriching his booty and war chests. Sirah of Muhammad by ibn Ishaq and ibn Hisham, all orthodox Islamic sources documenting these.

I would not attempt a discussion on these topics as I am not a Arabist and nor do I imagine are any of your interlocutors!

However, as with all ancient texts, we have to consider them in their exact historical context and not attempt to interpret them from our own 21st century viewpoint.

I am enjoying your contributions by the way.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Oh yes, you definitely are no Arabist and certainly no Islamicist.

Why are you repeating what I have written?

There are others here who have read and studied the Koran and sunnah/traditions and history of Islam plus the related Arabic far longer than you.

As I have never studied the Koran in any great depth, what point are you making? Are you attempting to make an appeal to your own prestige? If so, I regret that I do not consider your commentary on this topic to have been overly "academic" in either tone or content.

As for your outrage at Muslim barbarities towards the Jews you need to bear in mind that warfare was then, and remains now, a bloody business. Nor were there such as things as the ICC and Geneva Conventions in previous centuries.

Christians massacring Jews and Muslims when they took Jerusalem in 1099 were no less barbaric. The Christian church and its adherents persecuted and massacred Jews "back home" as well for centuries. Christians even slaughtered their own when they took Constantinople in 1204.

I am therefore not entirely sure what point you are attempting to make in your reply.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

While it may have started out as a way for Muslims to avoid persecution by lying (compare and contrast that to early Christian martyrs)

What Christian martyrs might these be?

From evidence it is apparent that many Christians did renege on their faith, and perform their required official religious duties, in order to save their lives.

[Dan Zebiri]

Because it bears and is worth repeating.

Why don't you try assessing the contents of koranic doctrines of war espoused ny the verses given rather than hide behind your so called 'ignorance'?

And no, your presumption of my alleged 'prestige' is incorrect, as usual again.

Why are you repeating what I have written?

As I have never studied the Koran in any great depth, what point are you making? Are you attempting to make an appeal to your own prestige? If so, I regret that I do not consider your commentary on this topic to have been overly "academic" in either tone or content.

As for your outrage at Muslim barbarities towards the Jews you need to bear in mind that warfare was then, and remains now, a bloody business. Nor were there such as things as the ICC and Geneva Conventions in previous centuries.

Christians massacring Jews and Muslims when they took Jerusalem in 1099 were no less barbaric. The Christian church and its adherents persecuted and massacred Jews "back home" as well for centuries. Christians even slaughtered their own when they took Constantinople in 1204.

I am therefore not entirely sure what point you are attempting to make in your reply.

[Trucker]

As I have never studied the Koran in any great depth,

That I can understand! The Qur'qn make absolutely no sense at all to someone just trying to become acquainted with what is is that Muslims believe. Or, perhaps more accurately, what Muslims are supposed to believe. To study the Qua'an seems like a complete waste of one's time to someone not at all familiar with what makes the Muslim tic who is knowledgeable and conversant in all the Islamic sacralized writings.. In short, Muhammad is the supreme example for all Muslims. What Muhammad said, what he did and how he did it, what refused to do, What he permitted and what he forbade ....... on and on on Right down to every detail of how to take care of one's body functions when in the toilet!!!! That is true Islam is a nutshell.

I'll tell you tha Osama bin Laden Knew his Islamic sacralized writings very well! Take it from there and see what you come up with! A mandate to wage war until all the world is subdued or converted to Islam!!!!!

Christians massacring Jews and Muslims when they took Jerusalem in 1099 were no less barbaric. The Christian church and its adherents persecuted and massacred Jews "back home" as well for centuries. Christians even slaughtered their own when they took Constantinople in 1204..

Would you care to show us the Scripture passages authorizing or permitting the atrocities you mention?? You know better .... or if you don't know better you should!! Now I have no reason the think you will tart anything say with anything other than to hand wave it off. So I'm again wasting my time. But I tried.[/COLOR]

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

[COLOR="#0000FF"]That I can understand!

Trucker do not try and pretend you are an Arabist

I know you from past exchanges elsewhere.

[Trucker]

Trucker do not try and pretend you are an Arabist

I know you from past exchanges elsewhere.

You imply something I have never claimed. Purely diversionary garbage, Ma'am. About what I expected since I know you from exchanges elsewhere.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You imply something I have never claimed. Purely diversionary garbage, Ma'am. About what I expected since I know you from exchanges elsewhere.

You like to affect a knowledge of Islam.

[Trucker]

You like to affect a knowledge of Islam.

Actually I rely primarily on Islamists and history for my understanding of Islam, Ma'am. Their[the islamists] own words. For example: The Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam. The various Tafsirs. The Qur'an. The "Sirat Rasul Allah". The "Explanatory Memorandum" from the archives of the Muslim Brotherhood in America. And such. For example here's a snip from the Explanatory Memorandum:

Understanding the role of the Muslim Brother in North America

The process of settlement is a "Civilizational-Jihadist Process" with all the word means. The Ikhuan must
understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western
civilization from within and sabotaging it's miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers
so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions. .......

Just so there's no misunderstanding here, "Jihad means war to establish Islam and "God's religion" [Islam] means "God" [Allah] as revealed and defined by Muhammad!

Like I said, if you want a quick and easy way to understand Islam just find out what Muhammad said and did and how he did it!!!

One needn't be a "Arabist' {your choice of terms] to understand what Islam is and what it's up to!! It [Islam} is, in fact, doing very well ... which is most unfortunate for just about everyone that is not a Muslim!!

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Actually I rely primarily on Islamists and history for my understanding of Islam, Ma'am.

Yet you have no understanding of the Arabic language or the Arabic culture.

One needn't be a "Arabist' {your choice of terms]

One needs an understanding of the Arabic language, the history of the Arabic peoples pre and post Islam, and some acquaintance with the origin and the subsequent development of the religion of Islam.