Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I do not think Hurtado is saying anything about whether Q is a real or hypothetical document here. It reads more to me like he's saying "if Q was actually a real source (written or oral) the only surviving trace we have left of it is what we have written in Matthew and Luke." I think attributing any sort of belief about Q's actual existence into Hurtado's statement here is reading too much into it.

Well he devotes an entire chapter to “Q and the Early Devotion to Jesus.”

From Goodacre, M, The Case Against Q, Trinity Press International, 2002

So why is Q apparently becoming so much more tangible? For while it has been widely assumed now for over a century, it is only relatively recently that its status has been elevated in this dramatic way, respected and relied upon by scholars who have not published anything on the Synoptic Problem. It is partly, no doubt, that scholars have been numbed to old-fashioned source-critical questions and it is hardly surprising that they eschew the tedious task of rehearsing issues that they regard as having been long solved. But it is also clear that the apparent elevation in Q's status has itself generated a fresh rhetoric, a rhetoric that then reinforces the situation that it is attempting to describe. For as soon as Q began to leave the arena of the Synoptic Problem and source criticism, the language of theory and hypothesis was quickly replaced with the language of "discovery." Once an artefact of this importance has been "found," scholars are naturally loath to lose it again. [...]

In this widespread new fascination with Q, there is a feature of its history and profile that is increasingly being played down, for not only has Q changed from a "source" into a "Gospel," but also it is forgetting its origin as a hypothesis, indeed a derivative hypothesis, the function of which was to account for the origin of the double tradition material on the assumption that Matthew and Luke were redacting Mark independently of one another. Many books and articles on Q now fail to mention this key element in Q's identity, dispensing with the word "hypothesis" and treating Q simply as part of the established literature of early Christianity.

This is the danger and mistake that many academics make, as Goodacre recounts at length in the rest of chapter.

At the end of the day what Hurtado writes is purely his interpretation. It does not follow that his is the definitive opinion on the matter.

As for his views on Hellenism and Paul, I will come to that later when I have perused the rest of his tome.

[Whateverman]

Ma'am, YOU are the one making the charges. Therefore it YOU"RE responsibility to show us the Christian Scriptures that would authorize or permit such atrocities as you mentioned.

Don't be ridiculous. If you want to prove they weren't Christians, that's up to you.

[JonathanL]

Don't be ridiculous. If you want to prove they weren't Christians, that's up to you.

That's not his claim.

[Trucker]

We all know there are numerous verses in the Bible to condemn witchcraft, demons, and idolatry.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/topi...ut-witchcraft/
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Demons
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Demons

'
The Question you were asked was: "Please quote us the Christian Scripture[s] that would authorize such actions." Perhaps I missed it. So help me out here. Where, in all the information you either posted or linked to IS THERE ONE COMMAND TO ME AS A CHRISTIAN OR AUTHORIZATION FOR ME AS A CHRISTIAN TO UNJUSTLY MISTREAT OR ABUSE ANYONE??? Please show it to me!!

For me as a Christian witchcraft [assuming there is presently such a practice] is wrong. Now how have I mistreated anyone with that statement???? Tell me!! If I were to encounter in person a self admitted witch [or wicca] I have no authority to harm her [or him] in any way. But I do have every right as an American citizen to avoid taking part in any activity with that person. At the same time if that person was in dire need of, for example, medical treatment or food it would be my duty as a Christian to do my best to provide it for them.

A demon is a super-natural entity thus is not a person, ma'am. I would presumably be powerless against a demon. I gather you do not believe in the super-natural. That's still your privilege in this life. No one can convince you otherwise. You would have to experience it personally and no one can force that experience on anyone. That is as far as I will get into that area of discussion.

Any belief system that comes to the ascendancy that is premised on divine relations contained in so-called holy books is bound to result in prejudice and persecution towards those who do not adhere to it.

Please quote us the Scripture!.


Edited to add: I assume your obvious prejudices concernin Christian[s and Christianity would be exempt from criticism??? :ahem

Once any religious creed attains prominence it resorts using coercive methods to intimidate and control and uphold its authority and pre-eminence. Two thousand years of Christian history bears ample witness to that fact.

So show us the Scripture that authorizes me as a Christian to intimidate anyone. Or to control anyone. Or to uphold [enforce] Christian pre-eminence over anyone. As I stated earlier, until/unless you can do that all you are doing is exposing an irrational prejudice [HATRED] for Christians and Christianity by blowing nothing but hot air.

[siam]

'
[COLOR="#0000FF"]... IS THERE ONE COMMAND TO ME AS A CHRISTIAN OR AUTHORIZATION FOR ME AS A CHRISTIAN TO UNJUSTLY MISTREAT OR ABUSE ANYONE??? Please show it to me!!

So show us the Scripture that authorizes me as a Christian to intimidate anyone. Or to control anyone. Or to uphold [enforce] Christian pre-eminence over anyone. ...

The Christian Doctrine of Discovery
https://upstanderproject.org/firstli...9D%20in%201493.

based on the Papal bulls ---which in turn were based on "Apostolic authority" as specified in those bulls
https://www.wcucc.org/wp-content/upl...-9-23-2018.pdf

1452 Dum Diversas ---Pope Nicholas V
1455 Romanus Pontifex---Pope Nicholas V
1456 Inter Ceatera quae--Pope Calixtus III
1481 Aeterni regis---Sixtus IV
1493 Inter Caetera--- Pope Alexander VI

These bulls made it both moral and lawful to dehumanize, enslave, massacre, subjugate any "unbeleiver" in non-Christian territories.
massacres were dutifully carried out in the "West" such as the Taino masscare by Columbus and in the East starting with the Lisbon massacre of the Jews leading to the "inquisitions" and in particular the brutal Goa inquisitions ( from 1560 onwards)


However, not all Church people were comfortable with these decrees and some voiced their opposition.


inquisition:-
https://www.history.com/topics/relig...0and%20Muslims.

[DesertBerean]

The Christian Doctrine of Discovery
https://upstanderproject.org/firstli...9D%20in%201493.

based on the Papal bulls ---which in turn were based on "Apostolic authority" as specified in those bulls
https://www.wcucc.org/wp-content/upl...-9-23-2018.pdf

1452 Dum Diversas ---Pope Nicholas V
1455 Romanus Pontifex---Pope Nicholas V
1456 Inter Ceatera quae--Pope Calixtus III
1481 Aeterni regis---Sixtus IV
1493 Inter Caetera--- Pope Alexander VI

These bulls made it both moral and lawful to dehumanize, enslave, massacre, subjugate any "unbeleiver" in non-Christian territories.
massacres were dutifully carried out in the "West" such as the Taino masscare by Columbus and in the East starting with the Lisbon massacre of the Jews leading to the "inquisitions" and in particular the brutal Goa inquisitions ( from 1560 onwards)


However, not all Church people were comfortable with these decrees and some voiced their opposition.


inquisition:-
https://www.history.com/topics/relig...0and%20Muslims.

Uh siam....he wanted scripture, not church history.

[Tassman]

So show us the Scripture that authorizes me as a Christian to intimidate anyone. Or to control anyone. Or to uphold [enforce] Christian pre-eminence over anyone. As I stated earlier, until/unless you can do that all you are doing is exposing an irrational prejudice [HATRED] for Christians and Christianity by blowing nothing but hot air.

The undeniable fact is that very many Christians and entire Christian communities DID justify their behavior re slavery, the intimidation of black people, witch-killing, the subjugation of women etc. as scriptural. You seem to be implying that they got it wrong and that, by contrast, you’ve got it right - but they undoubtedly would have believed the same of you. Such certainty-based biblical interpretations are what led to the formation of so many denominations and centuries of religious wars between Christians.

[siam]

Uh siam....he wanted scripture, not church history.

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” ( Matthew 28:18-20, New International Version.)

This section of Scripture is known as the Great Commission. As the last recorded personal directive of Jesus to his disciples, it holds great significance to all his followers. It is the theological foundation for Christian evangelism, Crusades, and the Doctrine of Discovery. Christians have read this statement as God’s mandate to convert the world to Christianity so that the millennium could begin.

https://christianhegemony.org/the-do...exceptionalism



Note:---In the 21st century, the doctrine of discovery have been "repudiated" by many Christian denominations/Churches globally. (The list is too large to link)
also a reminder---justifications for conquest are not uniquely "Christian" but universally human.

[rogue06]

The undeniable fact is that very many Christians and entire Christian communities DID justify their behavior re slavery, the intimidation of black people, witch-killing, the subjugation of women etc. as scriptural. You seem to be implying that they got it wrong and that, by contrast, you’ve got it right - but they undoubtedly would have believed the same of you. Such certainty-based biblical interpretations are what led to the formation of so many denominations and centuries of religious wars between Christians.

As gets pointed out ad nauseam, for Christians to behave in such a manner they have to go directly against what we are told in Scripture no matter how they tried to rationalize it. In stark contrast Muslims are commanded to convert and subjugate those they encounter and for them not to do so they have to go directly what they are told in their holy books.

[rogue06]

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” ( Matthew 28:18-20, New International Version.)

This section of Scripture is known as the Great Commission. As the last recorded personal directive of Jesus to his disciples, it holds great significance to all his followers. It is the theological foundation for Christian evangelism, Crusades, and the Doctrine of Discovery. Christians have read this statement as God’s mandate to convert the world to Christianity so that the millennium could begin.

https://christianhegemony.org/the-do...exceptionalism



Note:---In the 21st century, the doctrine of discovery have been "repudiated" by many Christian denominations/Churches globally. (The list is too large to link)
also a reminder---justifications for conquest are not uniquely "Christian" but universally human.

Show me where that supports forcible conversions in any way, shape or form. Failing to do that, perhaps you'd prefer to discuss all the suras in the qur'an ordering conversion by the sword. And be warned I'm quite familiar with the concept of abrogation before you try to play games

[Tassman]

As gets pointed out ad nauseam, for Christians to behave in such a manner they have to go directly against what we are told in Scripture no matter how they tried to rationalize it. In stark contrast Muslims are commanded to convert and subjugate those they encounter and for them not to do so they have to go directly what they are told in their holy books.

And yet they did "behave in such a manner", in very large numbers and for many generations.

[Trucker]

The Christian Doctrine of Discovery
https://upstanderproject.org/firstli...9D%20in%201493.

based on the Papal bulls ---which in turn were based on "Apostolic authority" as specified in those bulls
https://www.wcucc.org/wp-content/upl...-9-23-2018.pdf

1452 Dum Diversas ---Pope Nicholas V
1455 Romanus Pontifex---Pope Nicholas V
1456 Inter Ceatera quae--Pope Calixtus III
1481 Aeterni regis---Sixtus IV
1493 Inter Caetera--- Pope Alexander VI

These bulls made it both moral and lawful to dehumanize, enslave, massacre, subjugate any "unbeleiver" in non-Christian territories.
massacres were dutifully carried out in the "West" such as the Taino masscare by Columbus and in the East starting with the Lisbon massacre of the Jews leading to the "inquisitions" and in particular the brutal Goa inquisitions ( from 1560 onwards)


However, not all Church people were comfortable with these decrees and some voiced their opposition.


inquisition:-
https://www.history.com/topics/relig...0and%20Muslims.

As has already been pointed out to you, AND AS I THINK YOU ALREADY KNEW,, nothing you point out here is Scripture. But YOUR Islamic sacralized writings repeatedly authorize, and in fact demand violence against the "unbelivers" [those who refuse to accept Muhammad's Allah and Muhammad as this Allah's last prophet!!!!

[Trucker]

As gets pointed out ad nauseam, for Christians to behave in such a manner they have to go directly against what we are told in Scripture no matter how they tried to rationalize it. In stark contrast Muslims are commanded to convert and subjugate those they encounter and for them not to do so they have to go directly what they are told in their holy books.

Precisely!!

[Trucker]

Don't be ridiculous. If you want to prove they weren't Christians, that's up to you.

I made no such claim and to say or imply I did is simply more diversionary hot air. For me to make such a claim would be far above my pay grade!!

[Trucker]

That's not his claim.

Exactly ... and thank you.