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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    We can stop right there since that has nothing whatsoever to do with crusades and the head of a Muslim state can declare a jihad.
    Head of a Muslim state (Caliph) has no "Divine Authority". (No concept of Divine right of Kings in Islam)

    The crusades were legally declared "Holy war" (Bellum sacrum) by the Pope.



    Simply because Christianity developed in a particular trajectory in its history and theology does not mean it is a default blueprint for other non-Christian religions. It is time to accept that non-Christians have their own historical trajectories.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
      You do realize google is a thing right?
      I do.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        If that was directed towards me then you need to go back to before Islam started its expansion.
        Theist only on this forum.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
          Theist only on this forum.
          I recommend you read this forum's guidelines.

          This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • Regardless of a muslim's falling out with so-and-so etc or not, the Koran, the sunnah of muhamed and hadith sahih of islam commanded and enjoin physical conquests and hegemony over the infidels ("unclean kuffars"/unbelievers in islam) - sura 33/22-27, 9/123, 61/9, 48/28 9/33 etc. hadith Bukhari 323. Because supposedly, Allah has "given the whole earth over to Muhd and his Muslims"!

            It is narrated on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded that I should fight and kill people till they declare that there is no god but Allah, and when they profess it that there is no god but Allah, their blood and riches are guaranteed protection on my behalf..”

            From: Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 32.

            Jesus Christ, centuries earlier to Muhamed, never taught or countenanced such territorial and violent hegemony. Regardless of what later religionists who are misled may have done in contravention to the injunctions of Jesus.


            Originally posted by siam View Post
            Arabs targeting the Christian Egyptians---The Coptic Christians as wells as other Christianities and Jews and others in Egypt were unhappy with Heraclius/Byzantine. This is because Byzantine looted the Egyptian Churches of their gold and silver and used poll tax of its non-Christian populace (head tax/poll tax, a carry-over from the Roman tributum capitis = tax on people considered "non-citizens"/non-romans)
            The Coptic Church favored a treaty with the Muslims (through General Amr ibn al-A'as) and entered into one despite Heraclius against any treaty and demanding war. Caliph Umar was not very keen on advancing on Egypt but Amr ibn al-A'as--a recent convert ---was enthusiastic. (eventually there was a falling out between Amr ibn al Aas and Caliph Umar)

            Destroying Zoroastrianism---It was (Christian Byzantuim) Heraclius that destroyed Adur Gushnasp, the famous Zoroastrian fire temple at Takht-i-Suleiman.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzant...02%E2%80%93628
            According to interpretations by Muslim scholars and jurists, the Zoroastrians are a "protected people"/dimmi.

            Syria---The initial reason for the war began when the Arab Christian Ghassanids killed a Muslim emissary---(Ghassanids were vassals of the Byzantines)

            Apart from the wars with Persia, the Byzantines were troubled by raiding from the Avars (and slavs) and to stop it, they entered into a treaty with them with Byzantine paying tribute to the Avars. (Avars =Eurasian tribal groups, nomadic)

            Comment


            • Nah. You just didn’t get the vivid difference between Moses and Muhamed, and this difference is like night and day.

              Muhamed claimed the WHOLE EARTH to be his – to conquer and to take by divine right. Allah has given “the whole earth to me – Mohamed, and to my followers – the Muslims” from Sahih al-Bukhari No.323.

              Moses made no such claim. That slim strip of land known to Judaism or the early Hebrew people as the “promised land” is the territory of Canaan. Only that piece of real estate was what was promised to Moses and the Jews and was appropriated by his successor, Joshua.

              Once that promised land had been settled by the Hebrew-Jewish nation, the Jews or their leaders do not extend their conquests in any further direction. So the OT narrative of Moses’ people settling into Canaan as their promised land is delimited by geographical boundaries and time-bound upon Canaan’s full settlement by the Jews.

              By contrast, Muhamed’s and Islam’s, claim is the conquest of the WHOLE earth is legitimized for Muslim conquest, endorsed and enjoined by both Allah’s word in the Koran and confirmed by the Hadith, above (and many more of the same). Meaning that there are NO GEOGRAPHICAL boundaries and limits for Muslims’ territorial hegemonic conquests and obviously, time-wise it can naturally go on forever until the whole earth is totally under the religion and laws of islam.

              Muhamed said the following relevant to the above in the orthodox Sahih sources :

              It is narrated on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded that I should fight against people till they declare that there is no god but Allah, and when they profess it that there is no god but Allah, their blood and riches are guaranteed protection on my behalf" (lxxxviii, 22).

              - Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 32


              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Sounds like the Moses and the Israelites of the Old Testament.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                Nah. You just didn’t get the vivid difference between Moses and Muhamed, and this difference is like night and day.

                Muhamed claimed the WHOLE EARTH to be his – to conquer and to take by divine right. Allah has given “the whole earth to me – Mohamed, and to my followers – the Muslims” from Sahih al-Bukhari No.323.

                Moses made no such claim. That slim strip of land known to Judaism or the early Hebrew people as the “promised land” is the territory of Canaan. Only that piece of real estate was what was promised to Moses and the Jews and was appropriated by his successor, Joshua.

                Once that promised land had been settled by the Hebrew-Jewish nation, the Jews or their leaders do not extend their conquests in any further direction. So the OT narrative of Moses’ people settling into Canaan as their promised land is delimited by geographical boundaries and time-bound upon Canaan’s full settlement by the Jews.

                By contrast, Muhamed’s and Islam’s, claim is the conquest of the WHOLE earth is legitimized for Muslim conquest, endorsed and enjoined by both Allah’s word in the Koran and confirmed by the Hadith, above (and many more of the same). Meaning that there are NO GEOGRAPHICAL boundaries and limits for Muslims’ territorial hegemonic conquests and obviously, time-wise it can naturally go on forever until the whole earth is totally under the religion and laws of islam.

                Muhamed said the following relevant to the above in the orthodox Sahih sources :

                It is narrated on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded that I should fight against people till they declare that there is no god but Allah, and when they profess it that there is no god but Allah, their blood and riches are guaranteed protection on my behalf" (lxxxviii, 22).

                - Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 32
                Great Post!!

                Edited to add: And it sure doesn't sound like anything Christians were authorized to do!!!
                Last edited by Trucker; 06-29-2020, 10:21 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post

                  Muhamed claimed the WHOLE EARTH to be his – to conquer and to take by divine right. Allah has given “the whole earth to me – Mohamed, and to my followers – the Muslims” from Sahih al-Bukhari No.323.
                  What was understood by the "whole earth" to someone in Arabia in the late sixth century? It did not include the Americas, nor parts of the Far East and Oceania.

                  Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                  Moses made no such claim.
                  What about Abram? Gen.15.18-21? Have you looked at what that could include on a modern map of the Middle East? It might not be the whole earth as you and I now comprehend that term but to the peoples of the ancient near east it was a sizeable chunk.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    I recommend you read this forum's guidelines.

                    This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
                    Sorry, my mistake.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by siam View Post
                      Head of a Muslim state (Caliph) has no "Divine Authority". (No concept of Divine right of Kings in Islam)

                      The crusades were legally declared "Holy war" (Bellum sacrum) by the Pope.



                      Simply because Christianity developed in a particular trajectory in its history and theology does not mean it is a default blueprint for other non-Christian religions. It is time to accept that non-Christians have their own historical trajectories.
                      And yet they can still declare a jihad.

                      Muslims have repeatedly demonstrated a disingenuous duplicity when it comes to the subject of jihad (like pretending it really means an inner struggle rather than holy war), and we are seeing it in action right now.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        And yet they can still declare a jihad.

                        Muslims have repeatedly demonstrated a disingenuous duplicity when it comes to the subject of jihad (like pretending it really means an inner struggle rather than holy war), and we are seeing it in action right now.
                        The official skinny on jihad straight from the Islamic book on Shari for inquisitive minds who want to know:
                        Jihad

                        Quoted from RELIANCE OF THE TRAVELER, Page 599 & 600
                        O9.0 JIHAD
                        [ O] Jihad means to war against non-Muslims and is entymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion. And it is the lesser jihad. As for the greater jihad, it is spiritual warfare against the lower self (nafs), which is why the prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said as he was returning from jihad,

                        “We have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad”

                        The scriptural basis for jihad, prior to scholarly consensus (def: b7) is such koranic verses as:

                        (1) “Fighting is prescribed for you” Koran 2:216

                        (2) “ Slay them wherever you find them” Koran 4:89

                        (3) “Fight the idolators utterly” Koran 9:36

                        and such hadiths as the one related by Bukhari and Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said:

                        “I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and perform the prayer, and pay zakat. If they say it they have saved their blood and possessions from me, except for the rights of Islam over them. And their final reckoning is with Allah”;

                        and the hadith reported by Muslim,

                        “To go forth in the morning or evening to fight in the path of Allah is better than the whole world and everything in it.”

                        THE OBLIGATORY CHARACTER OF JIHAD

                        o9.1 Jihad is a communal obligation ….
                        Furthermore, I have it from reliable and knowledgeable sources that there is no reliable hadith to support the " ... from the lesser jihad ... " even though it is in the official Sharia law!!!! Also, I have no doubt our official resident Muslim polemicist is well aware of all the quoted information!! He left the Islam discussion board leaving many question he chose not to address. In short, Jihad means war to establish Islam!!!!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                          Furthermore, I have it from reliable and knowledgeable sources that there is no reliable hadith to support the " ... from the lesser jihad ... " even though it is in the official Sharia law!!!! Also, I have no doubt our official resident Muslim polemicist is well aware of all the quoted information!! He left the Islam discussion board leaving many question he chose not to address. In short, Jihad means war to establish Islam!!!!
                          Interesting. What and who are your sources?
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            And yet they can still declare a jihad.

                            Muslims have repeatedly demonstrated a disingenuous duplicity when it comes to the subject of jihad (like pretending it really means an inner struggle rather than holy war), and we are seeing it in action right now.
                            maybe there is a miscommunication? What is your definition of "holy war"?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              What was understood by the "whole earth" to someone in Arabia in the late sixth century? It did not include the Americas, nor parts of the Far East and Oceania.

                              What about Abram? Gen.15.18-21? Have you looked at what that could include on a modern map of the Middle East? It might not be the whole earth as you and I now comprehend that term but to the peoples of the ancient near east it was a sizeable chunk.
                              I would not recommend an engagement about ahadith from Christian apologetics---Hadith are in Arabic. They mention circumstances of the "sayings" as well as the transmission route. They are also categorized into subjects/themes and many contradict each other because the circumstances are different---example---on a hot day the Prophet might say ---drink cold water, but on a cold day he might say drink hot water....etc.
                              Christian apologetics have no clue how to handle the ahadith.

                              Shahih Bukhari 323 is about mensturation
                              Narrated Um Salama: While I was lying with the Prophet under a woolen sheet, I got my menses. I slipped away and put on the clothes for menses. The Prophet said, Have you got your menses? I replied, Yes. He called me and I slept with him under the woolen sheet.
                              https://hamariweb.com/islam/hadith/sahih-bukhari-323/
                              ...Hadith 323 in the book of invocations says
                              Narrated Al-Bara bin 'Azib:

                              Allah's Apostle ﷺ said to me, "When you want to go to bed, perform ablution as you do for prayer, then lie down on your right side and say: 'Allahumma aslamtu wajhi ilaika, wa fauwadtu Amri ilaika wa aljatu zahri ilaika, raghbatan wa rahbatan ilaika, lamalja'a wa la manja mink a ill a ilaika. Amantu bikitabi kalladhi anzalta wa bi nabiyyikal-ladhi arsalta'. If you should die then (after reciting this) you will die on the religion of Islam (i.e., as a Muslim),
                              so let these words be the last you say (before going to bed)" While I was memorizing it, I said, "Wa birasiulikal-ladhi arsalta (in Your Apostle whom You have sent).' The Prophet ﷺ said, "No, but say: Wa binabiyyi-kalladhi arsalta (in Your Prophet whom You have sent)."


                              This is because the classification system is complicated and one needs to be a Hadith scholar to understand and interpret this stuff.

                              The next hadith by Jubair ---
                              It is narrated on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

                              War is a stratagem.
                              This is from the book of Jihad and expeditions (32) and the hadith is numbered 20
                              the one that is numbered 22 says
                              It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

                              Do not desire an encounter with the enemy; but when you encounter them, be firm.



                              The Quran quotes are easier to deal with---generally if one reads the verses prior to, and subsequent to, the ones quoted---it generally puts the quoted verses in context. Sometimes the historical circumstances behind the verses add a helpful dimension.

                              Comment


                              • How aware were the Prophet and the Meccan/Medinan Arabs of the world beyond the Arabian peninsula?

                                opinions differ among Western historians---some look at the Bedouins and conclude that the Arabs around Mecca and Medina were simple, tribal, generally nomadic peoples. IMO, they forget that The Prophet was a Trader/Merchant and the Arabian peninsula has the silk route to the north (Persia) and the maritime spice trade to the south (present day Yemen). These trade routes span from Africa to China.

                                The Arab and Persian Jews were already established traders along these routes and the Christian missionaries of the Eastern Churches (Nestorian) used these routes for their religious missions.
                                Last edited by siam; 06-29-2020, 11:28 PM.

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