Originally posted by DesertBerean
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostYou just made an absolute statement.
World War II started on 3 September 1939. That is also "an absolute statement" based on attested historical evidence."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostBased on attested historical evidence.
World War II started on 3 September 1939. That is also "an absolute statement" based on attested historical evidence.
I'm not so sure that kind of certainty can be established for the doctrine of the Trinity being a fourth century construct as you claim.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Sheer hypocrisy siam.
Here's what the "word of Allah" in Surah 33/25-27 says to muslims to conquer properties, assets, lands and regions they have never been to before:
"God / Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. So that some ye SLEW, and some ye MADE PRISONERS.
And He made you muslims Heirs of THEIR LANDS, their HOUSES, and their GOODS, and of A LAND which ye had not frequented (IE. GONE TO) BEFORE."
Sura 33/25-27 (Yusuf Ali version)
Show me in the Matthew 28 verses you cited, WHERE Jesus Christ commanded His disciples and followers to "SLAY, TAKE PRISONERS / Forcefully abduct" then "GRAB lands, houses, properties and WHOLE REGIONS" that are NOT THEIRS, like muslims are commanded to physically conquer ILLEGITIMATELY in sura al-Ahzab above ?
These koranic verses are the real perpetrators inciting to wanton hegemony and expansionism, which the caliphs and their henchmen are just happy to oblige.
Originally posted by siam View PostThen Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” ( Matthew 28:18-20, New International Version.)
This section of Scripture is known as the Great Commission. As the last recorded personal directive of Jesus to his disciples, it holds great significance to all his followers. It is the theological foundation for Christian evangelism, Crusades, and the Doctrine of Discovery. Christians have read this statement as GodÂ’s mandate to convert the world to Christianity so that the millennium could begin.
https://christianhegemony.org/the-do...exceptionalism
Note:---In the 21st century, the doctrine of discovery have been "repudiated" by many Christian denominations/Churches globally. (The list is too large to link)
also a reminder---justifications for conquest are not uniquely "Christian" but universally human.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostWith regard to the Christian texts, of course there isn't. We have no original MSS and rely on copies of copies of copies. Nor are any of the narrative details within these texts confirmed by other extraneous contemporary sources.
I assume you don't get deep into the textual criticism related to the ability to determine the original text of the NT writings (while having no doctrines affected by the minor differences that are harder to clean up).
If you can overcome the arguments of the textual criticism on the accuracy of the reconstructed Greek, you can certainly address that.Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-24-2020, 12:08 PM.
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostGranted. That is a very well attested point in history.
I'm not so sure that kind of certainty can be established for the doctrine of the Trinity being a fourth century construct as you claim."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostI'm surprised you make this amateurish claim."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostYou are welcome to produce evidence for a complete original MSS of any of the four gospels.
Maybe I am reading too much in to your request? It sounded like you were asking for the original pages intact after 2000 years. The Nestle-Alan NA28 is broadly accepted. Do you have issues with that text?Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-24-2020, 12:22 PM.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostYou are making a useless argument here. You are chasing a rabbit. I'm still surprised you are taking this approach.
Maybe I am reading too much in to your request? It sounded like you were asking for the original pages intact after 2000 years."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostRead Eusebius of Caesarea's account of the First Council of Nicaea.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostAnd yet they did "behave in such a manner", in very large numbers and for many generations.
I guess you never had any kids.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostYet to be demonstrated or argued for in any convincing manner.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by siam View PostThen Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” ( Matthew 28:18-20, New International Version.)
This section of Scripture is known as the Great Commission. As the last recorded personal directive of Jesus to his disciples, it holds great significance to all his followers. It is the theological foundation for Christian evangelism, Crusades, and the Doctrine of Discovery. Christians have read this statement as God’s mandate to convert the world to Christianity so that the millennium could begin.
https://christianhegemony.org/the-do...exceptionalism
Note:---In the 21st century, the doctrine of discovery have been "repudiated" by many Christian denominations/Churches globally. (The list is too large to link)
also a reminder---justifications for conquest are not uniquely "Christian" but universally human.
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostRead Eusebius of Caesarea's account of the First Council of Nicaea.
"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).
Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)
Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)
Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.
"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)
The Trinity is a biblical doctrine, and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostYou appeared to consider that my comment was"amateurish". The Nestle-Alan NA28 uses the MSS that are extant. None of these are original MSS, as we do not have those original MSS. We are therefore relying, as I wrote earlier, upon copies of copies of copies with all the attendant scribal errors etc. I recommend Peter Cresswell's The Invention of Jesus: How the Church rewrote the New Testament on this issue.
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