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Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic

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  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    What you choose not to acknowjadge, John explained the Word was both "with the God," and "was God." Not was "the" God. We Christains understand the Word is not the same Person as the God, but is the same God, not another god.

    That there is only One God. In the same way the Son, the Word is the true light, John 1:9-10, Hebrews 1:3, John 1:3, Colossians 1:14-18.
    So, are the three persons of the unified trinity able to separate one from the other. Does Jesus in the flesh exist on earth apart from the Father who himself, as Jesus said, is in heaven? If not, then Jesus would not only be the son of god, but would also be the father and the holy spirit. How can one be here, another be there, and the other somewhere else, particularly if, as is said, god is omnipresent.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      So, are the three persons of the unified trinity able to separate one from the other. Does Jesus in the flesh exist on earth apart from the Father who himself, as Jesus said, is in heaven? If not, then Jesus would not only be the son of god, but would also be the father and the holy spirit. How can one be here, another be there, and the other somewhere else, particularly if, as is said, god is omnipresent.
      God is omnipresent and Spirit, John 4:24, Acts 17:28. Jesus when He was on earth was also indwelt by the Person of the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:22). The Holy Spirit, He is a localization of God's Spirit. Of course Jesus as a human is localized. Now God is not parts and not localized. But the Persons who are all the same God are distinct being Persons and as Persons are localized. Genuine Christians are today indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:16) who is also the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9). Christians as a group comprise God's temple on earth, called the Body of Christ, though the Man Jesus Christ as the Man is where what we would call the third Heaven (1 Timothy 2:5), beyond our known universe (Acts 1:11).
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        So, are the three persons of the unified trinity able to separate one from the other. Does Jesus in the flesh exist on earth apart from the Father who himself, as Jesus said, is in heaven? If not, then Jesus would not only be the son of god, but would also be the father and the holy spirit. How can one be here, another be there, and the other somewhere else, particularly if, as is said, god is omnipresent.
        I haven't read all the posts in this thread JimL so I'm not sure whether the following example has been given.

        When Jesus was on earth being baptised by John the Baptist, God's voice from heaven spoke and said, "This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased" and then the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove and rested on Jesus. In this picture you have all 3 members of the trinity interacting.

        In the book of Genesis God said, "let us make man in our own image". They are 3 separate entities. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They are one in purpose. That is how you can have 3 in one.

        Does this explanation help.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Esther View Post
          I haven't read all the posts in this thread JimL so I'm not sure whether the following example has been given.

          When Jesus was on earth being baptised by John the Baptist, God's voice from heaven spoke and said, "This is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased" and then the Holy Spirit descended in the form of a dove and rested on Jesus. In this picture you have all 3 members of the trinity interacting.

          In the book of Genesis God said, "let us make man in our own image". They are 3 separate entities. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They are one in purpose. That is how you can have 3 in one.

          Does this explanation help.
          Not really Esther, 3 distinct individuals would define polytheism, not monotheism. The Trinity defines the 3 persons as one god, a triune god, not 3 distict individuals which are separate one from the other. One can't be here, while the other 2 are elsewhere, they are supposed to be 3 persons in one god. Thank you for the response though.
          Last edited by JimL; 06-08-2020, 04:58 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Not really Esther, 3 distinct individuals would define polytheism, not monotheism. The Trinity defines the 3 persons as one god, a triune god, not 3 distict individuals which are separate one from the other. One can't be here, while the other 2 are elsewhere, they are supposed to be 3 persons in one god. Thank you for the response though.
            JimL,
            The Trinity explanation are three distinct persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit who are the one God.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              JimL,
              The Trinity explanation are three distinct persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit who are the one God.
              Yeah, I obviously know that if you'd been reading my post. But thanks for telling me anyway. Now if you could answer my post. If they are one god, how is it that 1 of the 3, the son, is down here on earth in the person of Jesus, while the other 2 are elswhere, presumedly in heaven. How do they split up like that if they are one god?
              Last edited by JimL; 06-09-2020, 11:11 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                JimL,
                The Trinity explanation are three distinct persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit who are the one God.
                And yet it took it took 300 years (until the First Council of Nicaea) to arrive at this conclusion. And only after a long struggle among the early Christians in deciding whether Jesus was God -or merely a holy man raised to divine status as many believed, notably the Arian Christians.

                Even then the Arian doctrine of Jesus being subordinate to the Father remained the accepted belief throughout much of the Roman empire, long after it was denounced as a heresy by the Council of Nicaea. It was retained by many Christians, particularly in the Germanic states, to the end of the 7th century.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Yeah, I obviously know that if you'd been reading my post. But thanks for telling me anyway. Now if you could answer my post. If they are one god, how is it that 1 of the 3, the son, is down here on earth in the person of Jesus, while the other 2 are elswhere, presumedly in heaven. How do they split up like that if they are one god?
                  . . . and in Heaven he is separate seated on the right hand of God the Father.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    And yet it took it took 300 years (until the First Council of Nicaea) to arrive at this conclusion. And only after a long struggle among the early Christians in deciding whether Jesus was God -or merely a holy man raised to divine status as many believed, notably the Arian Christians.

                    Even then the Arian doctrine of Jesus being subordinate to the Father remained the accepted belief throughout much of the Roman empire, long after it was denounced as a heresy by the Council of Nicaea. It was retained by many Christians, particularly in the Germanic states, to the end of the 7th century.
                    The Arian doctrine was a result of wrong headed notion the Son had had to be generated from God the Father in some way to be the Son. Being uniquely the Son.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      The Arian doctrine was a result of wrong headed notion the Son had had to be generated from God the Father in some way to be the Son. Being uniquely the Son.
                      Really? You mean the son was created by the Father? How about the holy spirit, was he/she/it created as well? I wonder at what time in gods timeless history this took place?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Yeah, I obviously know that if you'd been reading my post. But thanks for telling me anyway. Now if you could answer my post. If they are one god, how is it that 1 of the 3, the son, is down here on earth in the person of Jesus, while the other 2 are elswhere, presumedly in heaven. How do they split up like that if they are one god?
                        God is omnipresent. John 3:13, KJV, NKJV. The Son was then, and is now both son of man and Son of God. Being a distinct person from the Father.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          God is omnipresent. John 3:13, The Son was then, and is now both son of man and Son of God. Being a distinct person from the Father.
                          So, they are distinct persons in the sense that they are not 3 persons in one god? They are separate bodies, separate spirits?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            And yet it took it took 300 years (until the First Council of Nicaea) to arrive at this conclusion. And only after a long struggle among the early Christians in deciding whether Jesus was God -or merely a holy man raised to divine status as many believed, notably the Arian Christians.

                            Even then the Arian doctrine of Jesus being subordinate to the Father remained the accepted belief throughout much of the Roman empire, long after it was denounced as a heresy by the Council of Nicaea. It was retained by many Christians, particularly in the Germanic states, to the end of the 7th century.
                            It took hundreds of years, upon a sequence of heresies, to identify the best wording to represent the understanding of the Godhead revealed in scriptures. Without precise confessions, heretics could say the same words as orthodox people while having an improper view of the Godhead. There already were aspects of the multiple persons of the Godhead revealed in the Old Testament. This continued into the New Testament. The scriptures' testimony of this never changed. Only the precision of our description of this required improving.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              It took hundreds of years, upon a sequence of heresies, to identify the best wording to represent the understanding of the Godhead revealed in scriptures. Without precise confessions, heretics could say the same words as orthodox people while having an improper view of the Godhead. There already were aspects of the multiple persons of the Godhead revealed in the Old Testament. This continued into the New Testament. The scriptures' testimony of this never changed. Only the precision of our description of this required improving.
                              Right, and in order to make Jesus God, that had to come up with something, even if that something (three persons in one god) is completely illogical.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Right, and in order to make Jesus God, that had to come up with something, even if that something (three persons in one god) is completely illogical.
                                Is it unimportant that the multiple persons of the Godhead appear in the Old Testament too?

                                Are we to trust that somehow you understand God in his fullness? Was Old Testament prophecy improper to indicate the only logical explanation of God incarnate?

                                I'm not sure how you have some sort of standard to understand God who, by his essence, is not something we can fully comprehend. Have you even explored the philosophical framework by which this term "person" originated? If you don't know the philosophy behind the terminology, how can you determine whether this is possible or not?

                                Your conspiracy theory sounds untenable. Paul's writings are start within 20 years of the resurrection and he speaks of the Deity of Christ. The synoptic gospels came later, by most accounts. If there was a contrived effort to show Jesus as part of the Godhead, we would find these gospels quoting Jesus saying he is God. You would also have to make a theory why people even spoke of the Spirit -- since this would only (in such a framework) dilute the Deity of Christ.
                                Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-10-2020, 06:08 PM.

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