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Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic

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  • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    No one "understands" the Trinity. To presume to be able to understand one of the greatest mysteries of God would be arrogance of the highest order. The question is not whether you understand the Trinity or not, the question is whether the doctrine of the Trinity is consistent with God's word as revealed in the Old and New Testament. And the Christian response is that the Trinity is the only doctrine that makes sense of all the passages in the Old and New Testament that speak variously about God's oneness and unity, but also the passages that speak about the plurality of God.



    Jesus death on the cross was no different in nature from a regular human death. That's why I asked you if you believe your death, when it comes, can accurately be characterized as you "shedding off" your "human skin".



    No, we are not on the same page on this. Jesus IS the Son, so Jesus dying a physical death means that God the Son dies a physical death. Jesus and (God) the Son simply being different names for the same person. Anything that happened to Jesus can be properly claimed to have happened to God the Son, since they are one and the same. Therefore, when Christians say that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of humanity, it is equivalent to saying that God the Son died on the cross for the sins of humanity.



    Surely Islam has it's own share of mysteries as well?



    God being perfectly just means that he cannot overlook transgressions done against His law without the penalty for the transgression being paid. As Paul writes in Romans 3:


    Scripture Verse: Romans 3:21-26 ESV

    21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    © Copyright Original Source



    In other words, the reason God could forgive sins even before Christ taking on human nature and dying on the cross for our sake was precisely because Christ was going to die on the cross to atone both those former sins, and every other sin ever committed, and those that will be committed.
    And why does god need blood to appease his anger, or his wrath?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      And why does god need blood to appease his anger, or his wrath?
      That is a very good question.

      Scientifically blood is essentual for warm blooded animals and persons to remain conscious, that is to remain alive. Theologically the penalty for sin is to die: Genesis 2:17, Ezekiel 18;4, Romans 6:23. God in His offer of mercy acceps a substitute, Isaiah 1:18.

      Now that is by no means the whole explanation.

      In short, God's justice requires the payment of death for sin. And no amount of good deeds equals death. So salvation can only be a gift. But the debt of death is still required for God's justice.
      Last edited by 37818; 04-13-2020, 02:21 PM.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        That is a very good question.

        Scientifically blood is essentual for warm blooded animals and persons to remain conscious, that is to remain alive. Theologically the penalty for sin is to die: Genesis 2:17, Ezekiel 18;4, Romans 6:23. God in His offer of mercy acceps a substitute, Isaiah 1:18.

        Now that is by no means the whole explanation.

        In short, God's justice requires the payment of death for sin. And no amount of good deeds equals death. So salvation can only be a gift. But the debt of death is still required for God's justice.
        So you believe in a god who needs to kill in order to soothe his anger? It's an unjust god that requires more of his creations than they are capable of. Salvation, according to christianity is all about belief, not about sin. You don't die because you sin, you die because you don't believe. (according to your belief that is.)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          So you believe in a god who needs to kill in order to soothe his anger? It's an unjust god that requires more of his creations than they are capable of. Salvation, according to christianity is all about belief, not about sin. You don't die because you sin, you die because you don't believe. (according to your belief that is.)
          Actually, no.

          You die because of your sins, you live because of faith. Even unbelief in itself is a sin.

          And the issue isn't that God needs to "kill in order to soothe his anger", the issue is that the wages of sin is death. And there's nothing unjust of God to require that we live perfectly, as long as He also provides a way for us to be forgiven for our inevitable transgressions, which He does.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
            Actually, no.
            Actually, yes.
            You die because of your sins, you live because of faith. Even unbelief in itself is a sin.
            No, punishing someone for not believing something is a sin. And the above is semantical. If you live because you believe, then you die because you don't believe.
            And the issue isn't that God needs to "kill in order to soothe his anger", the issue is that the wages of sin is death. And there's nothing unjust of God to require that we live perfectly, as long as He also provides a way for us to be forgiven for our inevitable transgressions, which He does.
            Right, and that way is belief, without the which you die. So you die for not believing!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              No, punishing someone for not believing something is a sin.
              A sin is a transgression against the law of God. God punishing unbelievers is not a transgression against His own law.

              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              And the above is semantical. If you live because you believe, then you die because you don't believe.
              Perhaps, but even without the belief/unbelief issue we would still deserve nothing but death for our sins.


              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Right, and that way is belief, without the which you die. So you die for not believing!
              Having thought about this I admit you're actually right, in a way. Unbelief is certainly a sin in and of itself. But as I mentioned above, even without the issue of believing or not believing we would still deserve punishment for our sins. The alternative would be that God punishes everyone for their sins, as opposed to punishing only those who persist in their unbelief.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                1) No one "understands" the Trinity. To presume to be able to understand one of the greatest mysteries of God would be arrogance of the highest order. The question is not whether you understand the Trinity or not, the question is whether the doctrine of the Trinity is consistent with God's word as revealed in the Old and New Testament. And the Christian response is that the Trinity is the only doctrine that makes sense of all the passages in the Old and New Testament that speak variously about God's oneness and unity, but also the passages that speak about the plurality of God.



                2) Jesus death on the cross was no different in nature from a regular human death. That's why I asked you if you believe your death, when it comes, can accurately be characterized as you "shedding off" your "human skin".



                3) No, we are not on the same page on this. Jesus IS the Son, so Jesus dying a physical death means that God the Son dies a physical death. Jesus and (God) the Son simply being different names for the same person. Anything that happened to Jesus can be properly claimed to have happened to God the Son, since they are one and the same. Therefore, when Christians say that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of humanity, it is equivalent to saying that God the Son died on the cross for the sins of humanity.


                4) Surely Islam has it's own share of mysteries as well?



                5) God being perfectly just means that he cannot overlook transgressions done against His law without the penalty for the transgression being paid. As Paul writes in Romans 3:


                Scripture Verse: Romans 3:21-26 ESV

                21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

                © Copyright Original Source



                In other words, the reason God could forgive sins even before Christ taking on human nature and dying on the cross for our sake was precisely because Christ was going to die on the cross to atone both those former sins, and every other sin ever committed, and those that will be committed.
                1) No one "understands" the Trinity.---Who knew!!!This is indeed a revelation to me!!!!...at least now I can be assured that my intelligence is fine!.
                So...the Trinity is a mystery. (Thomas Aquinas would agree with you...he said so as well).
                God's oneness and unity--- there is not much of a mystery about the statement that "God is one" --- its simple to understand and self-explanatory---would you agree?

                2)Jesus death on the cross was no different in nature from a regular human death.---This refers to the "physical death" you keep mentioning right? So...you are saying Jesus the human person dies a physical death...no different from any regular human being? ....and this death is enough for God to forgive sins? ....so why does God incarnate?


                3) Jesus = God the Son.
                Jesus dies = God the son dies.
                So...God the Son (a.k.a Jesus) is not Eternal right?
                for reference....
                Eternal = lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
                Die = cease to exist.

                I am a bit confused between 2) and 3)---who is it that dies? Jesus the human person or Jesus who is God the son?

                4) Yes

                5) Observing transgressions against the law and forgiving those who repent are 2 different things. If God cannot forgive those who ask for forgiveness...then God is neither most merciful, not most just.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  So you believe in a god who needs to kill in order to soothe his anger?
                  No. Sin merits death. Ezekiel 18:4. And God offers a remedy, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 31:31-34. It seems just you are not being reasonable.

                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  It's an unjust god that requires more of his creations than they are capable of.
                  False. Romam 3:24-26. ". . . that he might be just, . . ."

                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Salvation, according to christianity is all about belief, not about sin.
                  You are wrong. Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:10.

                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  You don't die because you sin, you die because you don't believe. (according to your belief that is.)
                  Again wrong. Romans 5:12.
                  Last edited by 37818; 04-13-2020, 09:48 PM.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                    1) Justice is paying the price for transgressions against God's law.

                    2) On the contrary, self-sacrificial love (which does not necessarily imply giving up your own life, but can also mean giving up benefits that you enjoy in order that someone else might gain from it) is conducive to life and humanity, on the condition that everyone, or at least the majority practices it. If everyone lives not for their own sake, but for the sake of their community, and does not seek their own gain it naturally leads to a situation where even if someone sacrifices much for the sake of others he will have nothing to worry about, because his self-sacrificial acts will be reciprocated by his fellow community members during times of his own need.

                    3) God kills Himself? Where on earth have you gotten that misconception from? And what is being commemorated and worshipped is not the torture and death in itself, but God, His love for mankind, the the lengths He is willing to go to redeem us from our sins.

                    4) And what Muslims claim as truth both Jews and Christians deny. Islam claims to be the continuation of the revelation of the Old and New Testament, but when you read the Quran it contradicts both of them. God's word is not found in the Quran.
                    1) Does Christianity have an explanation as to why a price is to be paid?
                    Islam does not have "original sin" so in our conception of "Justice"---restorative justice is important---not only does it help repair damaged relations between humans but by encouraging repentance, it encourages the healing of any moral injury of the soul. God is most compassionate, most merciful and sincere repentance opens the door to forgiveness (of all humanity).

                    2) co-operation and sharing---we may be using different words/terms but mean the same thing?

                    3) God's love for humanity---that seems pretty apparent to me---one just has to look around to see and appreciate all of God's blessings.

                    4) No...this is not quite correct. The Shema and Tawheed are very similar. The Jews acknowledge that Muslims worship the same One God the Jews worship. That is why Muslims are allowed into synagogues. It is true that they do not acknowledge Prophet Muhammad but then Prophet Muhammad was not a Jewish Prophet sent to the Jews----He was an Arab sent primarily to the descendants of Prophet Abraham's son Ishmael, in fulfillment of a promise made to Prophet Abraham that his progeny would be guided.
                    There are points of contention between Jews and Muslims---one of which is that Jesus Christ was a Jewish Prophet sent to the Jews---which the Jews deny.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by siam View Post
                      1) No one "understands" the Trinity.---Who knew!!!This is indeed a revelation to me!!!!...at least now I can be assured that my intelligence is fine!.
                      So...the Trinity is a mystery. (Thomas Aquinas would agree with you...he said so as well).
                      God's oneness and unity--- there is not much of a mystery about the statement that "God is one" --- its simple to understand and self-explanatory---would you agree?
                      The Scriptures are quite clear on the question of whether there are any other beings separate from God who are also gods. There are none. The question then becomes what to do with the various places in both the OT and NT that indicate that even though God is one, there appears to be quite a few instances where God's plurality is hinted at in the OT, and outright claims in the NT about Jesus' divinity and the personhood of the Holy Spirit.

                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      2)Jesus death on the cross was no different in nature from a regular human death.---This refers to the "physical death" you keep mentioning right? So...you are saying Jesus the human person dies a physical death...no different from any regular human being? ....and this death is enough for God to forgive sins? ....so why does God incarnate?
                      No, Jesus the human and divine person dies a physical death. One person, both human and divine at the same time, dies a physical death.

                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      3) Jesus = God the Son.
                      Jesus dies = God the son dies.
                      So...God the Son (a.k.a Jesus) is not Eternal right?
                      for reference....
                      Eternal = lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
                      Die = cease to exist.
                      That's where we disagree. Dying is not the same as ceasing to exist. Even if your physical body perishes your spirit/soul still lives on.

                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      I am a bit confused between 2) and 3)---who is it that dies? Jesus the human person or Jesus who is God the son?
                      Jesus, who is both human and divine and who has existed eternally as the Son of God, or the Logos.

                      Jesus, the Logos, the Son of God, the Son of Man. All of these (and many more) are names and titles referring to one and the same person, Who after the incarnation has both a human and divine nature.

                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      5) Observing transgressions against the law and forgiving those who repent are 2 different things. If God cannot forgive those who ask for forgiveness...then God is neither most merciful, not most just.
                      But God can forgive those who ask for forgiveness, precisely because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. If God does not forgive He is not merciful, but if He does not demand payment for sins He is not just. But no human being could ever pay the price for his sins in full, so the only option left for God the Father to satisfy both His mercy and His justice is to send His Son (who is one with the Father) to willingly suffer and die to pay the price for our sins so that we might be forgiven.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by siam View Post
                        1) Does Christianity have an explanation as to why a price is to be paid?
                        Islam does not have "original sin" so in our conception of "Justice"---restorative justice is important---not only does it help repair damaged relations between humans but by encouraging repentance, it encourages the healing of any moral injury of the soul. God is most compassionate, most merciful and sincere repentance opens the door to forgiveness (of all humanity).
                        The difference between the Christian and Muslim view is that while both teach that sincere repentance opens the door to forgiveness (though in the Christian view sincere repentance would inevitably lead to faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning work on the cross and confessing Him as Lord) Christians maintain that the payment for sins/transgressions must still be paid somehow. And there are numerous passages in the OT and NT that speak about sinners deserving punishment, or having to pay the price for their sins.

                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        2) co-operation and sharing---we may be using different words/terms but mean the same thing?
                        My point in the last post was simply that self-sacrificial love must not always mean giving up your own life. It can and many times does look like that, but not always.

                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        3) God's love for humanity---that seems pretty apparent to me---one just has to look around to see and appreciate all of God's blessings.
                        True. But nowhere else is God's love as apparent as on the Cross where Christ died to atone for our sins.

                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        4) No...this is not quite correct. The Shema and Tawheed are very similar. The Jews acknowledge that Muslims worship the same One God the Jews worship. That is why Muslims are allowed into synagogues. It is true that they do not acknowledge Prophet Muhammad but then Prophet Muhammad was not a Jewish Prophet sent to the Jews----He was an Arab sent primarily to the descendants of Prophet Abraham's son Ishmael, in fulfillment of a promise made to Prophet Abraham that his progeny would be guided.
                        There are points of contention between Jews and Muslims---one of which is that Jesus Christ was a Jewish Prophet sent to the Jews---which the Jews deny.
                        You claim that what I said is not "quite correct" but immediately after you prove my words correct by noting a critical point of disagreement between Muslims and Jews?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                          1) The Scriptures are quite clear on the question of whether there are any other beings separate from God who are also gods. There are none. The question then becomes what to do with the various places in both the OT and NT that indicate that even though God is one, there appears to be quite a few instances where God's plurality is hinted at in the OT, and outright claims in the NT about Jesus' divinity and the personhood of the Holy Spirit.

                          2) No, Jesus the human and divine person dies a physical death. One person, both human and divine at the same time, dies a physical death.
                          3) That's where we disagree. Dying is not the same as ceasing to exist. Even if your physical body perishes your spirit/soul still lives on.
                          4) Jesus, who is both human and divine and who has existed eternally as the Son of God, or the Logos.

                          Jesus, the Logos, the Son of God, the Son of Man. All of these (and many more) are names and titles referring to one and the same person, Who after the incarnation has both a human and divine nature.

                          5) But God can forgive those who ask for forgiveness, precisely because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. If God does not forgive He is not merciful, but if He does not demand payment for sins He is not just. But no human being could ever pay the price for his sins in full, so the only option left for God the Father to satisfy both His mercy and His justice is to send His Son (who is one with the Father) to willingly suffer and die to pay the price for our sins so that we might be forgiven.
                          1) Have we both agreed that the Trinity is a mystery or do you want to explore it?

                          2) Jesus human = dies (physical death)
                          Jesus Divine (God the son) = dies (physical death)
                          3) Conventional definition "die" = cease to exist
                          Christian definition "die" = continues to exist.
                          4) Therefore, Jesus human + Jesus Divine = Eternal ( Eternal = lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning) because they did not really "die"/cease to exist---they were just perceived "dead'....an illusion?
                          What happened to God?...where is God in all this?

                          5) Sacrifice---this refers to torture? points 2,3,4 already established that Jesus human + Jesus divine are eternal therefore did not "cease to exist".

                          6) Some synonyms of "to forgive" = amnesty, to absolve, declare someone free from blame, responsibility.
                          Therefore---If God (most merciful) were to forgive---there would obviously be no "payment"/punishment--- because if there were, God did not forgive.
                          But maybe Christians define the term "to forgive" differently?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            1) The difference between the Christian and Muslim view is that while both teach that sincere repentance opens the door to forgiveness (though in the Christian view sincere repentance would inevitably lead to faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning work on the cross and confessing Him as Lord) Christians maintain that the payment for sins/transgressions must still be paid somehow. And there are numerous passages in the OT and NT that speak about sinners deserving punishment, or having to pay the price for their sins.

                            2) My point in the last post was simply that self-sacrificial love must not always mean giving up your own life. It can and many times does look like that, but not always.

                            3) True. But nowhere else is God's love as apparent as on the Cross where Christ died to atone for our sins.

                            4) You claim that what I said is not "quite correct" but immediately after you prove my words correct by noting a critical point of disagreement between Muslims and Jews?
                            1) The Christian view of "Justice" is that while repentance allows for forgiveness, it does not diminish punishment?---then, of what use is repentance and forgiveness?
                            As I explained, the Quranic view of Justice is restorative---to heal the soul. Forgiveness/repentance is a means of healing the soul of both the one who was injured and the one who caused the injury.
                            For the injured---forgiveness moves the soul from hatred and anger towards compassion and mercy while repentance moves the soul of the one who caused injury from hate and arrogance to humility and remorse. This is the "way"/path towards becoming "humane".

                            2) Ok---as long as it is understood that it is non-zero-sum. (I think the term "co-operation" fits better)

                            3) I don't see it.

                            4) Critical point of disagreement---(IMO) No its not "critical" because I am not a Christian---I am Muslim. Jews accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ is a matter between them and God.
                            In matters of differences, I will follow the direction the Quran gives because I am Muslim.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by siam View Post
                              1) Have we both agreed that the Trinity is a mystery or do you want to explore it?
                              Or? Who says the two are mutually contradictive? It's still possible to explore facets of the doctrine, even if it's largely a mystery to us. And it being a mystery doesn't mean it isn't possible to clear up at least some of the confusion regarding the doctrine.

                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              2) Jesus human = dies (physical death)
                              Jesus Divine (God the son) = dies (physical death)
                              Jesus, who is both divine and human = dies (physical death). There's only one death involved here, but the person who dies has two natures.

                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              3) Conventional definition "die" = cease to exist
                              Christian definition "die" = continues to exist.
                              No, the conventional definition of die is not "cease to exist", not unless you're an atheist, or someone who doesn't believe humans have a soul/spirit, or unless you're talking about something like "someone's anger dying out", but that definition of "die" doesn't fit physical/biological death. The definition of death that we're working with here is not "cessation of existence", but "permanent (sans divine intervention) cessation of biological activity".



                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              4) Therefore, Jesus human + Jesus Divine = Eternal ( Eternal = lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning) because they did not really "die"/cease to exist---they were just perceived "dead'....an illusion?
                              What happened to God?...where is God in all this?
                              Why are you constantly trying to split Jesus into two persons? There is not a "Jesus human", and a "Jesus Divine". There is one Jesus, who is both human and Divine. And He was not simply perceived as 'dead', His physical body died a true physical/biological death, that is, His body ceased all biological activity, and His body would have remained dead, where it not for divine intervention.

                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              5) Sacrifice---this refers to torture? points 2,3,4 already established that Jesus human + Jesus divine are eternal therefore did not "cease to exist".
                              Why are you so obsessed with defining death as "cease to exist"? As a muslim you don't even hold to that definition of death yourself, unless your beliefs are at odds with your fellow adherents.

                              And again, there's no human Jesus, or a divine Jesus, there's one single, both human and divine, Jesus.

                              And the sacrifice would involve at least the shame/loss of honor + death that being executed on the cross like a common criminal would involve.

                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              6) Some synonyms of "to forgive" = amnesty, to absolve, declare someone free from blame, responsibility.
                              Therefore---If God (most merciful) were to forgive---there would obviously be no "payment"/punishment--- because if there were, God did not forgive.
                              But maybe Christians define the term "to forgive" differently?
                              That definition does not explain why someone is declared free from blame and is not in contradiction to God still demanding payment for sins. Christians believe God can declare someone free from blame precisely because Jesus took the blame in our stead.

                              So your definition of divine forgiveness would be "declaring you blameless without any consequences", the Christian definition would be "declaring you blameless because Another took on the blame in your stead".

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by siam View Post
                                1) The Christian view of "Justice" is that while repentance allows for forgiveness, it does not diminish punishment?---then, of what use is repentance and forgiveness?
                                Of course it diminishes punishment, for the one who repents. But punishment is still due, which means Someone else must take (or rather, has already has already taken) the punishment in your stead.

                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                As I explained, the Quranic view of Justice is restorative---to heal the soul. Forgiveness/repentance is a means of healing the soul of both the one who was injured and the one who caused the injury.
                                For the injured---forgiveness moves the soul from hatred and anger towards compassion and mercy while repentance moves the soul of the one who caused injury from hate and arrogance to humility and remorse. This is the "way"/path towards becoming "humane".
                                I would say justice is mainly (but not purely) punitive. What you call justice, the restorative aspect, is properly part of mercy in my opinion.

                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                3) I don't see it.
                                Do you see the love involved when a parent dies to save their children? Or when a spouse dies to save their significant other? How about when a fireman dies to save someone from burning alive in a house fire?

                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                4) Critical point of disagreement---(IMO) No its not "critical" because I am not a Christian---I am Muslim. Jews accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ is a matter between them and God.
                                In matters of differences, I will follow the direction the Quran gives because I am Muslim.
                                If the Jews reject what your religion says about Jesus, then they obviously reject the Quran as divine revelation, or Muhammed as God's prophet. They might concede that there are points of agreements between the two religions, such as the monotheism, and might even go so far as to agree that both religions believe in the same God, but ultimately they believe Muhammed was a false prophet who was either a liar/deceiver, deceived or mistaken himself, or delusional. And if they believe there's some truth in the Quran it's definitely not because it's a text that was divinely revealed by God.

                                Comment

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