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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAnd why does god need blood to appease his anger, or his wrath?
Scientifically blood is essentual for warm blooded animals and persons to remain conscious, that is to remain alive. Theologically the penalty for sin is to die: Genesis 2:17, Ezekiel 18;4, Romans 6:23. God in His offer of mercy acceps a substitute, Isaiah 1:18.
Now that is by no means the whole explanation.
In short, God's justice requires the payment of death for sin. And no amount of good deeds equals death. So salvation can only be a gift. But the debt of death is still required for God's justice.Last edited by 37818; 04-13-2020, 02:21 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThat is a very good question.
Scientifically blood is essentual for warm blooded animals and persons to remain conscious, that is to remain alive. Theologically the penalty for sin is to die: Genesis 2:17, Ezekiel 18;4, Romans 6:23. God in His offer of mercy acceps a substitute, Isaiah 1:18.
Now that is by no means the whole explanation.
In short, God's justice requires the payment of death for sin. And no amount of good deeds equals death. So salvation can only be a gift. But the debt of death is still required for God's justice.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo you believe in a god who needs to kill in order to soothe his anger? It's an unjust god that requires more of his creations than they are capable of. Salvation, according to christianity is all about belief, not about sin. You don't die because you sin, you die because you don't believe. (according to your belief that is.)
You die because of your sins, you live because of faith. Even unbelief in itself is a sin.
And the issue isn't that God needs to "kill in order to soothe his anger", the issue is that the wages of sin is death. And there's nothing unjust of God to require that we live perfectly, as long as He also provides a way for us to be forgiven for our inevitable transgressions, which He does.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostActually, no.
You die because of your sins, you live because of faith. Even unbelief in itself is a sin.
And the issue isn't that God needs to "kill in order to soothe his anger", the issue is that the wages of sin is death. And there's nothing unjust of God to require that we live perfectly, as long as He also provides a way for us to be forgiven for our inevitable transgressions, which He does.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, punishing someone for not believing something is a sin.
Originally posted by JimL View PostAnd the above is semantical. If you live because you believe, then you die because you don't believe.
Originally posted by JimL View PostRight, and that way is belief, without the which you die. So you die for not believing!
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post1) No one "understands" the Trinity. To presume to be able to understand one of the greatest mysteries of God would be arrogance of the highest order. The question is not whether you understand the Trinity or not, the question is whether the doctrine of the Trinity is consistent with God's word as revealed in the Old and New Testament. And the Christian response is that the Trinity is the only doctrine that makes sense of all the passages in the Old and New Testament that speak variously about God's oneness and unity, but also the passages that speak about the plurality of God.
2) Jesus death on the cross was no different in nature from a regular human death. That's why I asked you if you believe your death, when it comes, can accurately be characterized as you "shedding off" your "human skin".
3) No, we are not on the same page on this. Jesus IS the Son, so Jesus dying a physical death means that God the Son dies a physical death. Jesus and (God) the Son simply being different names for the same person. Anything that happened to Jesus can be properly claimed to have happened to God the Son, since they are one and the same. Therefore, when Christians say that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of humanity, it is equivalent to saying that God the Son died on the cross for the sins of humanity.
4) Surely Islam has it's own share of mysteries as well?
5) God being perfectly just means that he cannot overlook transgressions done against His law without the penalty for the transgression being paid. As Paul writes in Romans 3:
In other words, the reason God could forgive sins even before Christ taking on human nature and dying on the cross for our sake was precisely because Christ was going to die on the cross to atone both those former sins, and every other sin ever committed, and those that will be committed.
So...the Trinity is a mystery. (Thomas Aquinas would agree with you...he said so as well).
God's oneness and unity--- there is not much of a mystery about the statement that "God is one" --- its simple to understand and self-explanatory---would you agree?
2)Jesus death on the cross was no different in nature from a regular human death.---This refers to the "physical death" you keep mentioning right? So...you are saying Jesus the human person dies a physical death...no different from any regular human being? ....and this death is enough for God to forgive sins? ....so why does God incarnate?
3) Jesus = God the Son.
Jesus dies = God the son dies.
So...God the Son (a.k.a Jesus) is not Eternal right?
for reference....
Eternal = lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
Die = cease to exist.
I am a bit confused between 2) and 3)---who is it that dies? Jesus the human person or Jesus who is God the son?
4) Yes
5) Observing transgressions against the law and forgiving those who repent are 2 different things. If God cannot forgive those who ask for forgiveness...then God is neither most merciful, not most just.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo you believe in a god who needs to kill in order to soothe his anger?
Originally posted by JimL View PostIt's an unjust god that requires more of his creations than they are capable of.
Originally posted by JimL View PostSalvation, according to christianity is all about belief, not about sin.
Originally posted by JimL View PostYou don't die because you sin, you die because you don't believe. (according to your belief that is.)Last edited by 37818; 04-13-2020, 09:48 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post1) Justice is paying the price for transgressions against God's law.
2) On the contrary, self-sacrificial love (which does not necessarily imply giving up your own life, but can also mean giving up benefits that you enjoy in order that someone else might gain from it) is conducive to life and humanity, on the condition that everyone, or at least the majority practices it. If everyone lives not for their own sake, but for the sake of their community, and does not seek their own gain it naturally leads to a situation where even if someone sacrifices much for the sake of others he will have nothing to worry about, because his self-sacrificial acts will be reciprocated by his fellow community members during times of his own need.
3) God kills Himself? Where on earth have you gotten that misconception from? And what is being commemorated and worshipped is not the torture and death in itself, but God, His love for mankind, the the lengths He is willing to go to redeem us from our sins.
4) And what Muslims claim as truth both Jews and Christians deny. Islam claims to be the continuation of the revelation of the Old and New Testament, but when you read the Quran it contradicts both of them. God's word is not found in the Quran.
Islam does not have "original sin" so in our conception of "Justice"---restorative justice is important---not only does it help repair damaged relations between humans but by encouraging repentance, it encourages the healing of any moral injury of the soul. God is most compassionate, most merciful and sincere repentance opens the door to forgiveness (of all humanity).
2) co-operation and sharing---we may be using different words/terms but mean the same thing?
3) God's love for humanity---that seems pretty apparent to me---one just has to look around to see and appreciate all of God's blessings.
4) No...this is not quite correct. The Shema and Tawheed are very similar. The Jews acknowledge that Muslims worship the same One God the Jews worship. That is why Muslims are allowed into synagogues. It is true that they do not acknowledge Prophet Muhammad but then Prophet Muhammad was not a Jewish Prophet sent to the Jews----He was an Arab sent primarily to the descendants of Prophet Abraham's son Ishmael, in fulfillment of a promise made to Prophet Abraham that his progeny would be guided.
There are points of contention between Jews and Muslims---one of which is that Jesus Christ was a Jewish Prophet sent to the Jews---which the Jews deny.
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Originally posted by siam View Post1) No one "understands" the Trinity.---Who knew!!!This is indeed a revelation to me!!!!...at least now I can be assured that my intelligence is fine!.
So...the Trinity is a mystery. (Thomas Aquinas would agree with you...he said so as well).
God's oneness and unity--- there is not much of a mystery about the statement that "God is one" --- its simple to understand and self-explanatory---would you agree?
Originally posted by siam View Post2)Jesus death on the cross was no different in nature from a regular human death.---This refers to the "physical death" you keep mentioning right? So...you are saying Jesus the human person dies a physical death...no different from any regular human being? ....and this death is enough for God to forgive sins? ....so why does God incarnate?
Originally posted by siam View Post3) Jesus = God the Son.
Jesus dies = God the son dies.
So...God the Son (a.k.a Jesus) is not Eternal right?
for reference....
Eternal = lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
Die = cease to exist.
Originally posted by siam View PostI am a bit confused between 2) and 3)---who is it that dies? Jesus the human person or Jesus who is God the son?
Jesus, the Logos, the Son of God, the Son of Man. All of these (and many more) are names and titles referring to one and the same person, Who after the incarnation has both a human and divine nature.
Originally posted by siam View Post5) Observing transgressions against the law and forgiving those who repent are 2 different things. If God cannot forgive those who ask for forgiveness...then God is neither most merciful, not most just.
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Originally posted by siam View Post1) Does Christianity have an explanation as to why a price is to be paid?
Islam does not have "original sin" so in our conception of "Justice"---restorative justice is important---not only does it help repair damaged relations between humans but by encouraging repentance, it encourages the healing of any moral injury of the soul. God is most compassionate, most merciful and sincere repentance opens the door to forgiveness (of all humanity).
Originally posted by siam View Post2) co-operation and sharing---we may be using different words/terms but mean the same thing?
Originally posted by siam View Post3) God's love for humanity---that seems pretty apparent to me---one just has to look around to see and appreciate all of God's blessings.
Originally posted by siam View Post4) No...this is not quite correct. The Shema and Tawheed are very similar. The Jews acknowledge that Muslims worship the same One God the Jews worship. That is why Muslims are allowed into synagogues. It is true that they do not acknowledge Prophet Muhammad but then Prophet Muhammad was not a Jewish Prophet sent to the Jews----He was an Arab sent primarily to the descendants of Prophet Abraham's son Ishmael, in fulfillment of a promise made to Prophet Abraham that his progeny would be guided.
There are points of contention between Jews and Muslims---one of which is that Jesus Christ was a Jewish Prophet sent to the Jews---which the Jews deny.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post1) The Scriptures are quite clear on the question of whether there are any other beings separate from God who are also gods. There are none. The question then becomes what to do with the various places in both the OT and NT that indicate that even though God is one, there appears to be quite a few instances where God's plurality is hinted at in the OT, and outright claims in the NT about Jesus' divinity and the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
2) No, Jesus the human and divine person dies a physical death. One person, both human and divine at the same time, dies a physical death.
3) That's where we disagree. Dying is not the same as ceasing to exist. Even if your physical body perishes your spirit/soul still lives on.
4) Jesus, who is both human and divine and who has existed eternally as the Son of God, or the Logos.
Jesus, the Logos, the Son of God, the Son of Man. All of these (and many more) are names and titles referring to one and the same person, Who after the incarnation has both a human and divine nature.
5) But God can forgive those who ask for forgiveness, precisely because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. If God does not forgive He is not merciful, but if He does not demand payment for sins He is not just. But no human being could ever pay the price for his sins in full, so the only option left for God the Father to satisfy both His mercy and His justice is to send His Son (who is one with the Father) to willingly suffer and die to pay the price for our sins so that we might be forgiven.
2) Jesus human = dies (physical death)
Jesus Divine (God the son) = dies (physical death)
3) Conventional definition "die" = cease to exist
Christian definition "die" = continues to exist.
4) Therefore, Jesus human + Jesus Divine = Eternal ( Eternal = lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning) because they did not really "die"/cease to exist---they were just perceived "dead'....an illusion?
What happened to God?...where is God in all this?
5) Sacrifice---this refers to torture? points 2,3,4 already established that Jesus human + Jesus divine are eternal therefore did not "cease to exist".
6) Some synonyms of "to forgive" = amnesty, to absolve, declare someone free from blame, responsibility.
Therefore---If God (most merciful) were to forgive---there would obviously be no "payment"/punishment--- because if there were, God did not forgive.
But maybe Christians define the term "to forgive" differently?
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post1) The difference between the Christian and Muslim view is that while both teach that sincere repentance opens the door to forgiveness (though in the Christian view sincere repentance would inevitably lead to faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning work on the cross and confessing Him as Lord) Christians maintain that the payment for sins/transgressions must still be paid somehow. And there are numerous passages in the OT and NT that speak about sinners deserving punishment, or having to pay the price for their sins.
2) My point in the last post was simply that self-sacrificial love must not always mean giving up your own life. It can and many times does look like that, but not always.
3) True. But nowhere else is God's love as apparent as on the Cross where Christ died to atone for our sins.
4) You claim that what I said is not "quite correct" but immediately after you prove my words correct by noting a critical point of disagreement between Muslims and Jews?
As I explained, the Quranic view of Justice is restorative---to heal the soul. Forgiveness/repentance is a means of healing the soul of both the one who was injured and the one who caused the injury.
For the injured---forgiveness moves the soul from hatred and anger towards compassion and mercy while repentance moves the soul of the one who caused injury from hate and arrogance to humility and remorse. This is the "way"/path towards becoming "humane".
2) Ok---as long as it is understood that it is non-zero-sum. (I think the term "co-operation" fits better)
3) I don't see it.
4) Critical point of disagreement---(IMO) No its not "critical" because I am not a Christian---I am Muslim. Jews accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ is a matter between them and God.
In matters of differences, I will follow the direction the Quran gives because I am Muslim.
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Originally posted by siam View Post1) Have we both agreed that the Trinity is a mystery or do you want to explore it?
Originally posted by siam View Post2) Jesus human = dies (physical death)
Jesus Divine (God the son) = dies (physical death)
Originally posted by siam View Post3) Conventional definition "die" = cease to exist
Christian definition "die" = continues to exist.
Originally posted by siam View Post4) Therefore, Jesus human + Jesus Divine = Eternal ( Eternal = lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning) because they did not really "die"/cease to exist---they were just perceived "dead'....an illusion?
What happened to God?...where is God in all this?
Originally posted by siam View Post5) Sacrifice---this refers to torture? points 2,3,4 already established that Jesus human + Jesus divine are eternal therefore did not "cease to exist".
And again, there's no human Jesus, or a divine Jesus, there's one single, both human and divine, Jesus.
And the sacrifice would involve at least the shame/loss of honor + death that being executed on the cross like a common criminal would involve.
Originally posted by siam View Post6) Some synonyms of "to forgive" = amnesty, to absolve, declare someone free from blame, responsibility.
Therefore---If God (most merciful) were to forgive---there would obviously be no "payment"/punishment--- because if there were, God did not forgive.
But maybe Christians define the term "to forgive" differently?
So your definition of divine forgiveness would be "declaring you blameless without any consequences", the Christian definition would be "declaring you blameless because Another took on the blame in your stead".
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Originally posted by siam View Post1) The Christian view of "Justice" is that while repentance allows for forgiveness, it does not diminish punishment?---then, of what use is repentance and forgiveness?
Originally posted by siam View PostAs I explained, the Quranic view of Justice is restorative---to heal the soul. Forgiveness/repentance is a means of healing the soul of both the one who was injured and the one who caused the injury.
For the injured---forgiveness moves the soul from hatred and anger towards compassion and mercy while repentance moves the soul of the one who caused injury from hate and arrogance to humility and remorse. This is the "way"/path towards becoming "humane".
Originally posted by siam View Post3) I don't see it.
Originally posted by siam View Post4) Critical point of disagreement---(IMO) No its not "critical" because I am not a Christian---I am Muslim. Jews accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ is a matter between them and God.
In matters of differences, I will follow the direction the Quran gives because I am Muslim.
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