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Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic

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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Firstly there is no mention any Trinity in the biblical texts, and secondly to attempt to justify an argument in the manner you have employed is fallacious.
    Sorry, I cannot help you with your lack of reading comprehension skills.
    Last edited by Christian3; 07-11-2020, 02:55 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Trucker View Post
      Not if read in context, ma'am. Your question to which my above quoted question was addressed was: When read in the context of your question my answer is correctly understood as an offer to clarify for you.
      Making veiled ad hominems against your interlocutor is a somewhat pointless exercise. Likewise using exceptionally large font sizes is a virtual version of shouting at one’s interlocutor and insofar as there is any internet etiquette considered rather ill mannered.

      Originally posted by Trucker View Post
      Ma'am, there are passages the Jews evidently don't want to understand
      Your arrogant assumption on this matter is noted. However, if you can bring yourself to look at the original Hebrew text you will see that two entirely different words are used.

      In the Hebrew it is therefore clear that it is Yahweh (himself) who is addressing the King who (himself) is the writer’s lord .

      The Septuagint substitutes the Greek κυριος [Lord] for both those words and the English translates it as “The Lord says to my lord”.

      From where do you get the notion that it is the “spirit” in Psalm 110?

      On what textual evidence are you basing that assumption?

      In ancient Israelite religion the spirit (rűaḥ) of Yahweh was an attribute of the deity not a separate or subsistent entity.

      Do you read also Psalm 2.7 literally? In that Psalm on the enthronement of the Israelite monarch, God declares: “You are my son, today I have begotten you”? Do you likewise believe that all Israelite kings were quite literally also the sons of God in the biological sense? This linguistic useage is self evidently metaphorical.

      Originally posted by Trucker View Post
      Three separate Beings, ALL DISPLAYING DIVINE ATTRIBUTES! A TRIUNITY, MY DEAR!
      I note your attempt to patronise. However, that aside, where exactly in the original Hebrew texts does the word that translates into Greek as “trinity” (τριας) appear?

      Originally posted by Trucker View Post
      The fact is the Trinity is a Scriptural teaching, ma'am. Whether you can see it, or are determined NOT To see it, is there right where you overlook it multiple times!
      One cannot overlook that which does not exist! The Greek word τριας does not occur within the whole realm of "scripture". Nor is there any equivalent term to be found (unless you can, as requested, produce one) anywhere in the Hebrew text of the OT! This is an established textual fact (not my personal opinion). No amount of arrogant posturing and bluster on your part can alter this certitude. The doctrine of the "trinity" is a later Christian theological construct and the term τριας does not appear in any written source before c.180 CE (Theophilus of Antioch).

      Originally posted by Trucker View Post
      Take the quotes I posted showing Paul's agreement with Jesus' teachings for one great example!
      Paul's authentic letters are our earliest Christian textual sources. His theological opinions and speculations expressed within these documents (though there were also others in the process of development) became the most dominant and enduring influence on nascent Christianity post 70 CE. However, Paul never equates Jesus directly with God. It might therefore be more plausible to suggest that those canonical gospel writers were putting into the mouth of Jesus phrases and comments that tallied with Pauline teachings. This would have hardly have been an unlikely occurrence under the prevailing circumstances.

      It must be recognised that it was Paul who created Christianity as a new religious cult separate from Judaism and he achieved this by conflating existing Judaic and Hellenistic concepts into a powerful and all embracing system, sufficient to enable the development of a completely new world religion, being by its nature, both acceptable and intelligible to Graeco-Roman society.

      Originally posted by Trucker View Post
      For another, your dismissal of Doctor Daniel Wallace's commentary on a passage!! One of the most acclaimed teachers of Koine Greek and so recognized by his peers ... but simple hand waved off by you! Excuse me. but I willl take Dr. Wallace's pronouncements over yours anything and anywhere!!
      I did not dismiss his remarks. However, he is merely one among many other commentators. Most scholars present their informed opinions, reasoned arguments and subsequent conclusions - they do not make "pronouncements". I merely observed that he appears to demonstrate a significant degree of theological bias from which he seems unable to distance himself.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
        Sorry, I cannot help you with your lack of reading comprehension skills.
        It is nothing to do with my "lack of reading comprehension".

        The fact is that you are alleging the existence of something that is not to be found in either the Hebrew or Christian scriptures.

        It just ain't there no matter how much you attempt to manipulate the texts and maintain otherwise.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          What claim? I have cited a fact. The Greek word “τριας” is not found in either the New Testament or the Septuagint.
          And orthodox Christianity says, "That's correct. So what?"

          Trinity is a word we use to describe how God works, based on our observations of what our sacred writings say. The concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are described in the Scriptures, and attested to as early as the second century. Not all who look to the Scriptures as authority agree with the concept of Trinity (Apostolics, for example) and they come up with their own theory (does the word Modalism appear in the texts by the way?)

          Many of us said that repeatedly- even in THIS thread I think!

          Your complaint is ludicrous on the face of it already.

          I expect your response will be that the texts are unreliable but opinions will magically authenticate passages one chooses to look at. Since the teaching of the Father/Son/ Holy Spirit is very much in the Church from the very beginning you already have a very tough job ahead of you. That's why many of the Christians here aren't taking you very seriously - history is on their side.
          Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

          Comment


          • The word "Bible" is not in the Bible either, but that is because Bible is English and not Greek. Trinity is originally Latin. The word does not need to appear for the concept to appear. Pi is in the OT even though the word is not used.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Jaltus View Post
              The word "Bible" is not in the Bible either, but that is because Bible is English and not Greek. Trinity is originally Latin. The word does not need to appear for the concept to appear. Pi is in the OT even though the word is not used.
              Hey Jaltus!
              Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                I did not dismiss his remarks. However, he is merely one among many other commentators. Most scholars present their informed opinions, reasoned arguments and subsequent conclusions - they do not make "pronouncements". I merely observed that he appears to demonstrate a significant degree of theological bias from which he seems unable to distance himself.
                How do you determine who has views of God that don't interfere with their study of the New Testament? The atheistic view of God will certainly bias such interpretations of the New Testament ... and may likely lead these atheists to create weird conspiracy theories to affirm this atheistic notion.

                Comment


                • Bias, preconceptions and subjective prejudices affect everyone's assertions and contributions here. And HA seems to be fully drenched in her prejudices and bias to deconstruct, dismantle and indeed destroy historic Christianity, not because of the facts but despite of the verifiable facts.

                  At all cost..and hell-bent.

                  She is loathe to even admit there is a historic Christian narrative from the very beginning of the first century A.D. elicitable to verifiable facts from both Christian sources and even non-Christian ones.

                  And that certainly clouds her biased opinions from beginning to the end.


                  Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                  How do you determine who has views of God that don't interfere with their study of the New Testament? The atheistic view of God will certainly bias such interpretations of the New Testament ... and may likely lead these atheists to create weird conspiracy theories to affirm this atheistic notion.

                  Comment


                  • Like claiming Dan Wallace's conclusions as allegedly being more influenced by his bias than his verifiable and objective research.

                    That's just because his conclusions do NOT square and resonate with HA's opinions and theories - and of others like hers.

                    That is just simply intellectual intolerance but certainly not scholastic integrity, and therefore should be taken with less than half a pinch of salt..😉😄☝️


                    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                    Bias, preconceptions and subjective prejudices affect everyone's assertions and contributions here. And HA seems to be fully drenched in her prejudices and bias to deconstruct, dismantle and indeed destroy historic Christianity, not because of the facts but despite of the verifiable facts.

                    At all cost..and hell-bent.

                    She is loathe to even admit there is a historic Christian narrative from the very beginning of the first century A.D. elicitable to verifiable facts from both Christian sources and even non-Christian ones.

                    And that certainly clouds her biased opinions from beginning to the end.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                      There is an ordering or a chain of command within the Trinity. All comes from the Father. It is Father who sends the son; the son never sends the Father; however the son can send the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit says what He hears from the Father. God sends His Holy Spirit and tells Him what to do and speak. That is why Peter said if you have lied to the Holy Spirit you have lied to God.

                      God’s Word is the second person of the Trinity. It is God’s Word who incarnated Jesus of Nazarath, making Him one person with two natures.

                      That is why Jesus as the incarnate Word of God could say that the Father is greater than He is. Greater in office, but not in essence.
                      You’ve moved on from the Modalism heresy to Arianism. This is the heretical belief that Jesus is the Son of God who was begotten by God the Father at a point in time, a being distinct from the Father and is therefore subordinate to him. Whereas the correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal, complete, coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit with none subordinate to the others in any sense.

                      https://www.britannica.com/topic/Arianism
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jaltus View Post
                        The word "Bible" is not in the Bible either, but that is because Bible is English and not Greek. Trinity is originally Latin. The word does not need to appear for the concept to appear. Pi is in the OT even though the word is not used.
                        Just as a question, from what language do you consider the word "Bible" is derived? The word trinity comes from Latin but the Greek τριας also means three e.g Triangle and Trigonometry.

                        Nor do I imagine the ancient Israelites had much concept of Greek mathematics.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          Just as a question, from what language do you consider the word "Bible" is derived? The word trinity comes from Latin but the Greek τριας also means three e.g Triangle and Trigonometry.

                          Nor do I imagine the ancient Israelites had much concept of Greek mathematics.


                          Yeah....can't even get mad at this. Have a good day.
                          Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                            Like claiming Dan Wallace's conclusions as allegedly being more influenced by his bias than his verifiable and objective research.
                            I believe the word for her accusation you mention is "projection" ... i.e. "the attribution of one's own ideas, feelings, or attitudes to other people or to objects". See here:

                            https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/projection

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                              Bias, preconceptions and subjective prejudices affect everyone's assertions and contributions here. And HA seems to be fully drenched in her prejudices and bias to deconstruct, dismantle and indeed destroy historic Christianity, not because of the facts but despite of the verifiable facts.
                              What “verifiable facts” are you considering in that comment?

                              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                              Bias, preconceptions and subjective prejudices affect everyone's She is loathe to even admit there is a historic Christian narrative from the very beginning of the first century A.D.
                              There is no such narrative dating back to the ” very beginning of the first century A.D”.

                              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                              elicitable to verifiable facts from both Christian sources and even non-Christian ones.
                              What Christian and indeed non Christian sources pertaining to [or referencing Christianity] are you citing from the ” very beginning of the first century A.D”?
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                                Like claiming Dan Wallace's conclusions as allegedly being more influenced by his bias than his verifiable and objective research.
                                Wallace is merely offering his opinions like every other scholar in this field. His conclusions are no more definitive [i.e.”true” or “correct”] than are those of anyone else.

                                However, like others from the evangelical wing he appears unable to set aside his own theological position on this topic. Tom [N.T.]Wright has the same issues. He is an accredited New Testament scholar but he is unable to view the subject matter except through the lens of his own Christian faith.

                                Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                                That's just because his conclusions do NOT square and resonate with HA's opinions and theories - and of others like hers.
                                The same comment may equally apply to yourself and others here. You dismiss the academic work of anyone in this field whose views do not correspond with, or endorse, your own theological beliefs.

                                One might conclude that your complaints are merely theologically based rancour at having your preconceived beliefs questioned and challenged.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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