Originally posted by mikewhitney
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
I acknowledge the human limitations of understanding the infinite God as the ultimately unknowable Source of all of existence. This part of the reason I reject the Trinity as defining God in terms of a Trinity.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
But we are working with the material that reveals what we know. The Trinity doctrine incorporates that description in the best summary we have so far. If there is an improved conception, then someone needs to step up and make a really good argument for that. The non-trinitarian proposals tend to undo the work of Christ and corrupt the nature of justification by God.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
You are proposing that if Trinity is true or false we have to rationalize whether it is true or not or to come up with an improved conception, which is not a valid way to justify a religious belief
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Originally posted by rogue06 View Post[ATTACH=CONFIG]42033[/ATTACH]Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
This is where all the confusion arose. The Neoplatonist ideas that underpinned the later construct of a Triune deity had all been developed in non-Christian contexts [and even in those their meanings were not indisputably defined]. The real problem came with making use of Greek philosophy, the only language sophisticated enough for such debates and key terms such ousia, homoousios, hypostasis and logos could not be easily be reformulated to deal with specific Christian issues such as the precise nature of Jesus and his relationship with God the Father.
Furthermore, formulating these concepts in two languages, Latin and Greek, when there was no strict equivalence between them further complicated the situation. Latin theologians translated the Greek ousia as substantia, but the Greeks translatedsubstantia as hypostasis,
“personality.”
So when the Latins talked of una substantia, in the sense of one divine substance [within which might be found the distinct personalities of the Trinity], it appeared in Greek as if they were affirming that there was only one hypostasis for the three persons of the Trinity, in effect preaching what would later be considered as heresy.
Macquarrie notes that the one is Being (not a being but Being) and in the One are 3 movements (Gregory Baum calls them eternal modes)..............persons.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
Can you word that differently? The analogy in science is like following Newtonian science until Relativity came about.
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
I was responding to the wording and the way you propose to resolve the validity of the concept of the Trinity.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
But we are working with the material that reveals what we know. The Trinity doctrine incorporates that description in the best summary we have so far. If there is an improved conception, then someone needs to step up and make a really good argument for that. The non-trinitarian proposals tend to undo the work of Christ and corrupt the nature of justification by God.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
I acknowledge the human limitations of understanding the infinite God as the ultimately unknowable Source of all of existence. This part of the reason I reject the Trinity as defining God in terms of a Trinity.
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Originally posted by thormas View Post
If we talk of the Trinity not as 'the understanding' of God in himSelf but as our, as the Christian community's, description of how they believe they encounter God in their lives - does that make a difference? It seems that the community had to 'expand' their God language so they could encompass their experience of Christ.Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-15-2020, 06:47 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by thormas View Post
I differ with you (if I understand you correctly) in that the 'best summary' makes little sense for most 21st C people. I think theologians, some previously mentioned, are onto a better summery or 'description' with the idea of movement or modes (ways) that the One Being acts in creation.
It is not sufficient in itself to move from the Trinitarian understanding to something else simply because it fits the 21st century mindset. There are a lot of cultural elements which are at odds with God and Christianity.Last edited by mikewhitney; 10-15-2020, 07:22 PM.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
What evidence do you have of 21st century people finding modalism (or whatever) more logical to the testimony of scripture?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
The argument for Modalism and ah . . . other conclusions of different churches concerning is many centuries old is based on the same information we have had throughout history and nothing to do what we have in the 21st century. All the different diverse and conflicting believe there belief is the 'logical to the testimony of scripture.'.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
I was responding to Thormas' comment about the 21st century mindset. The key element is that there would have to be a better model than the Trinitarian understanding.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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