Maybe Time for a Declaration of Independence

[Cow Poke]

Yup. If you leave the group, CP, be prepared to have your church called divisive and unloving.

EGGzackly what I shared this morning - and that we would likely be harassed by the media about why we're so judgmental. That's why I wanted to "start a conversation", and prepare the Church for the fact that this could get ugly.

[Cow Poke]

So, this afternoon, I wrote an email to our Ministerium President (a friend) about my concerns, and asking for a meeting. I'd like to meet with him sometime Monday (tomorrow) so I can let our Tuesday morning Men's Meeting know where we're headed.

I just explained that I have concerns over non-negotiables, and that the straw that broke the camel's back was this Islam outreach.

It will be interesting how he responds, but he already knows I was upset a year or so ago when these same churches "ambushed" our County Commissioners in our meeting, implying they were "not Christian" over the immigration issue.

[Cow Poke]

So, this afternoon, I wrote an email to our Ministerium President (a friend) about my concerns, and asking for a meeting. I'd like to meet with him sometime Monday (tomorrow) so I can let our Tuesday morning Men's Meeting know where we're headed.

I just explained that I have concerns over non-negotiables, and that the straw that broke the camel's back was this Islam outreach.

It will be interesting how he responds, but he already knows I was upset a year or so ago when these same churches "ambushed" our County Commissioners in our meeting, implying they were "not Christian" over the immigration issue.

Received response - he thanked me "for your convictions", and agreed to meet for lunch, or after. I'm opting for after.

[Cow Poke]

Wow, THAT was educational.

First of all, the President of our Ministerial Alliance (hereinafter called "the Prez"), is a personal friend, and is African American. He noted that people often assume that his politics are liberal because he's black, like he can't think for himself. He insists that, personally, he strongly believes that marriage is between one man and one woman, that living a homosexual lifestyle is a sin, that Islam is evil, that the County Commissioners did, indeed, get "ambushed" by the liberal ministers, etc...

But, first, let me get the "biggie" off my chest ---- According to the Prez, one of the main protagonists in the area of ordaining homosexuals and marrying same sex couples is, supposedly, personally quite opposed to both notions. He is "a company man", however, in that he is paid by his Denomination to be the Pastor at his Church, so he has to parrot "the company line". He is nearing retirement, and, supposedly, his retirement package would be greatly impacted if he went against his Denomination with his personal beliefs, or he could even be fired, forfeiting his retirement package. WOW - talk about "conviction". So, when he received the official denominational "how to marry same sex people" (or whatever they called it) he began publicizing their Church would do same sex marriages.

The fact that that SAME Church has "Lisa has two mommies" in their Church School library, along with a number of other pro-GBLZJGLEXCT books and publications, is merely the product of the fact that the librarian they pay put them there, and they don't want to be "censuring" things.

Second, he (the Prez) allows any of the members to request any item to be on the agenda, and there is no actual "statement of faith" or minimum adherence to a belief statement or anything like that. Supposedly, they never needed one before, because the Ministerium always consisted of "Christian Pastors".

On the "dialoguing with Islam" thing, he asked me if I received the promotional material from the Ministerium, or did it come directly from one of the 4 churches promoting it. I told him, from all I can tell, it came from the lead church of these 4, but promoted using the group email of the Ministerium, easily giving the appearance of support from the Ministerium. I suspected it was just these 4 churches promoting it, and the Prez confirmed that, but it's easy to make the inference that the Ministerium was behind it.

So, bottom line, the Prez pretty much agreed that, even though we don't do "politics" at the Ministerium, Religion in our County is pretty much divided along political lines. What I'm not sure of is the "makeup" of the liberal vs conservative churches in the Ministerium. I know, for a fact, that several of the Churches don't attend the monthly meetings at all BECAUSE of the liberal agenda, and it's mainly the "mainline" denominations - the Lutherans, Presbyterians and Episcopal Churches who support the liberal agenda, with the Baptist, Bible Churches, Church of Christ, Cowboy Churches, etc who represent the more conservative aspect, both biblically and politically.

He told me he very much values my support and my wisdom (I got him fooled on THAT!) and we have plenty of opportunity to fellowship in other community endeavors without the Ministerium, so, while he says he'll miss me at those meetings, he honors my decision to part company.

Still digesting some other things from our meeting.

[Sparko]

Why don't you all get together and make a statement of faith that the liberal churches will not assent to and get rid of them instead of leaving?

[Cow Poke]

Why don't you all get together and make a statement of faith that the liberal churches will not assent to and get rid of them instead of leaving?

I kinda explored that with the Prez. Here's what I think....

He's not only the Prez of the local ministerial alliance, he's also the head of the local mission outreach - a centralized place where we collect goods, sell stuff, feed the poor, give them clothes, etc. All of the Churches (most) contribute to that, as do we, and our Church will probably still contribute to that - it's separate from the minsterium.

HOWEVER, I suspect that the Prez believes if he angers these "big 4" who are big financial supporters of the local mission outreach, they'll get mad and stop giving. His salary comes from that organization.

I don't think he's interested in even discussing the possibility of a minimal statement of faith, because it would just about guaranty those 4 churches be locked out.

[Cow Poke]

This thing is wrong on so MANY levels - my Ministry Coordinator just brought up another angle I hadn't even thought of yet.....

"Why are these 4 Churches - all of whom are very pro-homosexual - trying to have a 'dialogue' with the most anti-homosexual religion on the planet"? Why would they even let them in their Church?

That's the thing about liberalism -- it is so incredibly inconsistent, because it's not based on principles, it's based on feelings.

[Sparko]

This thing is wrong on so MANY levels - my Ministry Coordinator just brought up another angle I hadn't even thought of yet.....

"Why are these 4 Churches - all of whom are very pro-homosexual - trying to have a 'dialogue' with the most anti-homosexual religion on the planet"? Why would they even let them in their Church?

That's the thing about liberalism -- it is so incredibly inconsistent, because it's not based on principles, it's based on feelings.

true. The same churches would castigate you if your church spoke out against homosexual behavior while accepting gays who want to change, while they reach out to Islam, which just kill gays outright.

[mossrose]

I kinda explored that with the Prez. Here's what I think....

He's not only the Prez of the local ministerial alliance, he's also the head of the local mission outreach - a centralized place where we collect goods, sell stuff, feed the poor, give them clothes, etc. All of the Churches (most) contribute to that, as do we, and our Church will probably still contribute to that - it's separate from the minsterium.

HOWEVER, I suspect that the Prez believes if he angers these "big 4" who are big financial supporters of the local mission outreach, they'll get mad and stop giving. His salary comes from that organization.

I don't think he's interested in even discussing the possibility of a minimal statement of faith, because it would just about guaranty those 4 churches be locked out.

And that is the problem. When the desire to not lose money by taking a stand means not taking that stand, then the compromise has been made.

Can you start your own Baptist/other evangelical ministerial group?

[Cow Poke]

And that is the problem. When the desire to not lose money by taking a stand means not taking that stand, then the compromise has been made.

Can you start your own Baptist/other evangelical ministerial group?

Yup, we're already drawing up the faith statement, which I will post here shortly, but getting input on it from other Evangelical Churches. AND, I have an executive board meeting with our Baptist Association tomorrow about the fact that we're starting an area-wide "evangelical" association.

(The Baptist Association covers several counties, consists only of Southern Baptist Churches, and I'm currently the moderator - the new group would be our own County, and open to all Churches and Ministers who agree to the statement of faith)

[mossrose]

[Sparko]

Yup, we're already drawing up the faith statement, which I will post here shortly, but getting input on it from other Evangelical Churches. AND, I have an executive board meeting with our Baptist Association tomorrow about the fact that we're starting an area-wide "evangelical" association.

(The Baptist Association covers several counties, consists only of Southern Baptist Churches, and I'm currently the moderator - the new group would be our own County, and open to all Churches and Ministers who agree to the statement of faith)

Perfect.

[Cow Poke]

So, it keeps getting stranger....

One of the chief Imams invited to speak at the "Conversation among Christians and Muslims" hosted by these really liberal PRO-GLBTCXQYMJKS churches is a guy who is very much an advocate AGAINST same sex marriage in particular, and homosexuality in general.

One of his statements is "Marriage is a sacred contract between a man and a woman that cannot be redefined. We believe that marriage between a man and a woman is the cornerstone of family life and the only institution within which to raise children."

I would LOVE for somebody to ask, at this "conversation" about the issue of homosexuality, and where these liberal churches find "common ground" with Islam. (I will be out of state on that date)

[Cow Poke]

OK, so today's meeting with the Baptist Association of Churches went just fine - no surprise at all. Most of the Pastors had long given up on the local Area Ministerium for the very reasons we cited. They're looking forward to more information on a conservative version.

[Teallaura]

I kinda explored that with the Prez. Here's what I think....

He's not only the Prez of the local ministerial alliance, he's also the head of the local mission outreach - a centralized place where we collect goods, sell stuff, feed the poor, give them clothes, etc. All of the Churches (most) contribute to that, as do we, and our Church will probably still contribute to that - it's separate from the minsterium.

HOWEVER, I suspect that the Prez believes if he angers these "big 4" who are big financial supporters of the local mission outreach, they'll get mad and stop giving. His salary comes from that organization.

I don't think he's interested in even discussing the possibility of a minimal statement of faith, because it would just about guaranty those 4 churches be locked out.

it makes perfect political sense. If you can't win them over - co-opt them. As they take prominence in the organization they can do exactly what they are doing - change the direction. Now it looks like the member churches are all pro- whatever.