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Why is apologetics almost unknown?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Yes, human beings.
    I swear Mrs Hathaway was an alien.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I swear Mrs Hathaway was an alien.
      All teachers have eyes surgically implanted in the backs of their heads.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #33
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        That my friend is anti-science in spades.
        It's still anti-modern-science.

        And the modern "science" and your attitude are part of the answer to the question. "Why is apologetics almost unknown?"

        Well, when people with your convictions teach in most schools.

        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Yes, human beings.
        Most places over the world these days, human beings with convictions like yours. Sure, some Christian private schools in the West plus some schools in the Islamic world would be exceptions.
        http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

        Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          I swear Mrs Hathaway was an alien.
          My unfamiliarity with US culture.

          I suppose you are not talking of Roberta Harley "Bobby" Hathaway, spouse of Stanley K. Hathaway?

          And the role of Nancy Kulp would be Miss Jane Hathaway.

          Perhaps that is even so more probable. And confusion about "Mrs" from fact that Roberta Harley Hathaway was also in fact teaching?

          While there, he met Roberta "Bobby" Harley, and they were married on November 25, 1948. Following his graduation from law school, the Hathaways moved to Torrington, Wyoming, where Mrs. Hathaway taught mainly English at Torrington Junior High School while Hathaway established a law practice.
          Last edited by hansgeorg; 12-20-2016, 07:53 AM.
          http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

          Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
            My unfamiliarity with US culture.
            Not to mention unfamiliarity with U.S. humour.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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            • #36
              All I'm gonna say is apologetics is a big part of what lost me. I found the arguments generally unconvincing. They show how a god is possible, but the sites I went to were largely anti-evolution, and that left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I wasn't sure how to reconcile Christianity with a modern scientific view of the universe. And I tried reading general overviews of various parts of the Bible from a nonreligious perspective and it seemed that there were historical inaccuracies. I was also never able to reconcile a loving god and hell.

              Maybe it's largely unknown becuase, as in my life, it doesn't usually convince those who already don't believe.
              Last edited by stfoskey15; 12-27-2016, 08:53 PM.
              Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

              "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

              "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                All I'm gonna say is apologetics is a big part of what lost me. I found the arguments generally unconvincing. They show how a god is possible, but the sites I went to were largely anti-evolution, and that left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I wasn't sure how to reconcile Christianity with a modern scientific view of the universe. And I tried reading general overviews of various parts of the Bible from a nonreligious perspective and it seemed that there were historical inaccuracies. I was also never able to reconcile a loving god and hell.

                Maybe it's largely unknown becuase, as in my life, it doesn't usually convince those who already don't believe.
                Sounds like you just got unlucky with your choices right off the bat, andor you didn't dig nearly deep enough in your quest for apologetic resources. Some of the very best apologetic resources are not only Old Earth Creationist/Theistic Evolutionist, but plenty have demonstrated that there is absolutely no conflict between science and religion. William Lane Craig, Alvin Plantinga, Francis Collins (and the whole Biologos team), Richard Swinburne, John Lennox, etc., all deal with the topic of religion and science on very sophisticated levels. You've been missing out. Also, the very best Christian apologists deal directly with the issues of the Problem of Evil, and the idea of a loving God and hell. Finally, there are literally thousands of fantastic resources on the scriptures from hundreds of the world's greatest, and most reputable Old and New Testament scholars working in strictly academic settings that could have helped you with whatever questions you might have had about the Bible.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                  They show how a god is possible, but the sites I went to were largely anti-evolution, and that left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I wasn't sure how to reconcile Christianity with a modern scientific view of the universe.
                  Why did you want a modern scientific view of the universe? What is that good for?

                  Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  Some of the very best apologetic resources are not only Old Earth Creationist/Theistic Evolutionist, but plenty have demonstrated that there is absolutely no conflict between science and religion. William Lane Craig, ....
                  Much as I generally like WLC as a fellow Catholic and sort of Thomist, that part of WLC is hardly more appealing than dirty slush in the streets while weather is deciding on winter or not winter. In other words, wishwash.

                  Not that I have had the misfortune to see very much of it, though.
                  http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                  Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                    Why did you want a modern scientific view of the universe? What is that good for?



                    Much as I generally like WLC as a fellow Catholic and sort of Thomist, that part of WLC is hardly more appealing than dirty slush in the streets while weather is deciding on winter or not winter. In other words, wishwash.

                    Not that I have had the misfortune to see very much of it, though.
                    William Lane Craig isn't a fellow Catholic.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      William Lane Craig isn't a fellow Catholic.
                      Just checked - according to wiki you are right, he is evangelical.

                      I had thought he was Catholic as per my finding him together with Peter Kreeft (who is Catholic) on youtube, and as per his support of St Thomas Aquinas.

                      But his take on St Thomas is certainly worthy of a Catholic, usually.
                      http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                      Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        Sounds like you just got unlucky with your choices right off the bat, andor you didn't dig nearly deep enough in your quest for apologetic resources. Some of the very best apologetic resources are not only Old Earth Creationist/Theistic Evolutionist, but plenty have demonstrated that there is absolutely no conflict between science and religion. William Lane Craig, Alvin Plantinga, Francis Collins (and the whole Biologos team), Richard Swinburne, John Lennox, etc., all deal with the topic of religion and science on very sophisticated levels. You've been missing out. Also, the very best Christian apologists deal directly with the issues of the Problem of Evil, and the idea of a loving God and hell. Finally, there are literally thousands of fantastic resources on the scriptures from hundreds of the world's greatest, and most reputable Old and New Testament scholars working in strictly academic settings that could have helped you with whatever questions you might have had about the Bible.
                        You're right, I could have gone deeper in my search. CARN and GotQuestions.org weren't necessarily the best sources. I found some other sources that were supportive of a theistic evolution view, but at that point I began to wonder what the point was of using a personal God to explain the universe anyway. Also when I read Wikipedia* I found that it seemed that a lot of the Old Testament prior to King David could not be historically verified and was sometimes likely wrong.

                        Any arguments for a hell that I've seen seemed to either assume that we have full knowledge of the consequences of our actions and the existence of God or that we can cause infinite harm to God and deserve infinite punishment. Are there other arguments?

                        *I know that's not recommended on here, but it was an easy source, I was still in HS and not wanting to do advanced research, and a lot of sources I saw online seemed to have an obvious bias, so...

                        Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                        Why did you want a modern scientific view of the universe? What is that good for?
                        Have you ever used electricity, driven or ridden in a train, automobile, or airplane, taken antibiotics, or used plastics? If so, congratulations, your life has been benefited by modern science! Heck, you typed your response on a computer, tablet, or smartphone. Circuits didn't invent themselves, it took knowledge of electricity and small scale manufacturing to figure it out. So I have proof that modern science benefited you. And by studying science and using it to develop better technologies, we can help to advance the condition of humanity.
                        Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

                        "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

                        "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                          You're right, I could have gone deeper in my search. CARN and GotQuestions.org weren't necessarily the best sources. I found some other sources that were supportive of a theistic evolution view, but at that point I began to wonder what the point was of using a personal God to explain the universe anyway. Also when I read Wikipedia* I found that it seemed that a lot of the Old Testament prior to King David could not be historically verified and was sometimes likely wrong.
                          Hmm. That's unfortunate. If you don't mind me asking, what brings you to a Christian theology forum if you've decided that there's no point looking any deeper?

                          Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                          Any arguments for a hell that I've seen seemed to either assume that we have full knowledge of the consequences of our actions and the existence of God or that we can cause infinite harm to God and deserve infinite punishment. Are there other arguments?
                          Yes there are. To be honest, in the nearly 20 years of reading apologetic literature, I can't ever remember running across the arguments for hell that you're alluding to here. Do you remember the apologists you read that led you to these views?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                            I don't get it. Thousands of years worth of evidence and arguements and I didnt know about any of even the most basic stuff untill relatively recently.
                            Why is that? Why is this information not thrusted into the public eye?
                            Well a straightforward answer is that it hasn't become all that well-known because not enough people agree with the validity of the arguments and so don't propagate them. Lots of apologists come up with various different arguments, but not enough people all agree on any one of them.

                            In my university philosophy classes we looked at a few religious things, like near-death experiences, the ontological argument, some of Thomas Aquinas's arguments, Descartes' writings, Hume's writings etc... but it was really an exercise in learning to think critically about logical arguments and find the mistakes in them because relatively few experts seem to think those various arguments have validity.

                            If someone could come up with some arguments that were widely regarded as compelling and correct, then philosophy departments in unis around the world would love discussing them. If you came up with enough such arguments and evidence that people almost universally found convincing, then I guess you could create a new whole subbranch of philosophy in secular universities. But, again, this hasn't happened because there hasn't been a critical mass of people who find any one particular apologetics argument convincing.
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              Well a straightforward answer is that it hasn't become all that well-known because not enough people agree with the validity of the arguments and so don't propagate them. Lots of apologists come up with various different arguments, but not enough people all agree on any one of them.

                              In my university philosophy classes we looked at a few religious things, like near-death experiences, the ontological argument, some of Thomas Aquinas's arguments, Descartes' writings, Hume's writings etc... but it was really an exercise in learning to think critically about logical arguments and find the mistakes in them because relatively few experts seem to think those various arguments have validity.

                              If someone could come up with some arguments that were widely regarded as compelling and correct, then philosophy departments in unis around the world would love discussing them. If you came up with enough such arguments and evidence that people almost universally found convincing, then I guess you could create a new whole subbranch of philosophy in secular universities. But, again, this hasn't happened because there hasn't been a critical mass of people who find any one particular apologetics argument convincing.
                              Well, there's no such thing as a philosophy that people even come close to finding universally convincing.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                Well, there's no such thing as a philosophy that people even come close to finding universally convincing.
                                I am talking about individual arguments. If someone were to produce a particular, specific, argument for the existence of God that was widely regarded as convincing then it would be taught and discussed at every university.

                                There are, of course, lots and lots of different apologists who write different books and different websites. But they all mostly use different arguments to each other, usually that they themselves have authored, because there are no apologetics arguments that have stood the test of time and expert opinion. If there were, everyone would learn the convincing argument at school or uni and we would all know that God existed.
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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